Review Prac-Match: St Kilda vs Essendon, RSEA Park, Friday 03/03/2023 @ 4.10pm

[srobbo]

Im guessing Lyon gave him a bake.

No Marshall is just a far better ruckman.

 

[BuffDog]

St Kilda’s was the lowest winning score of the week = defensive masterclass from us

 

[Red Black and Blue]

No Marshall is just a far better ruckman.

I wouldn't have thought so. Marshall isn't a top 10 ruck and more than Draper is. Drapers got more hitouts, clearances and goals per game. Rowan is just better at marking around the ground.

 

[fairbump_playon]

One thing I really noticed was the genuine lack of talent.

Agreed. Like maybe we’re already the best version of ourselves. We’re just not very good.

At a very basic level, it’s very hard to say that our forwards, midfield or defence is great, or even better than average. Not like we are sticking these mediocre aspects together with sizzling hot intensity and commitment.

To be a contender we need so many youngsters to come up well past league footballer level.. we need some proper stars. Plus some serious trades or FA’s in.

We need a key forward who is better than Wright. Happy with him as a 2 but he’s not consistently competitive enough to lead the attack.

Small forwards I think we might now be ok in time, maybe midfield is getting closer once Hobbs, Tsatas, Setterfield and Caldwell can gel.. but feel like we need one superstar piece in there.

Down back.. maybe Zerk, Reid and Hayes can do it together. But that line up 4 years away from being dominant.

When Scott says he will assess the list this year, he has all this in mind. In terms of performance we would be crazy to expect anything materially different before 2025.

 

[Chief Hopper]

Common everyone.
Lets not throw the baby out with the bathwater.
This isn't even a game in the regular season.

All those points kicked shows that the game was a lot closer than what was on the scoreboard.

As with player development, the coaches have already gone on record that they will put more emphasis on development. Results will take time.

 

[citizen-erased]

Agreed. Like maybe we’re already the best version of ourselves. We’re just not very good.

At a very basic level, it’s very hard to say that our forwards, midfield or defence is great, or even better than average. Not like we are sticking these mediocre aspects together with sizzling hot intensity and commitment.

To be a contender we need so many youngsters to come up well past league footballer level.. we need some proper stars. Plus some serious trades or FA’s in.

We need a key forward who is better than Wright. Happy with him as a 2 but he’s not consistently competitive enough to lead the attack.

Small forwards I think we might now be ok in time, maybe midfield is getting closer once Hobbs, Tsatas, Setterfield and Caldwell can gel.. but feel like we need one superstar piece in there.

Down back.. maybe Zerk, Reid and Hayes can do it together. But that line up 4 years away from being dominant.

When Scott says he will assess the list this year, he has all this in mind. In terms of performance we would be crazy to expect anything materially different before 2025.

Pretty spot on

Think about who'd go close to elite on out list

Merrett - 2x AAs - isnt someone who changes a game when the contest is on
Stringer - 2x AAs - one elite season in 5 with us. Regularly injured/not fit enough to impact
Parish - 1x AA - see merrett. Has done it for one season.
Shiel - 1x AA - hype doesnt much the output, and the hype has died away since he joined.

Put simply we struggle to recruit the best talent, be it via draft or trade.

 

[BrunoV]

I agree with with what your saying but I’m ok to reserve judgement on Scott for about the first 2-3 rounds.

I understand the idea of coming in and needing to assess things for yourself before forming an opinion or taking a stance on experienced, highly regarded players.

I am worried about the performance however - as you say, we are not a group that can flick a switch. As things stand, there is no reason to expect anything good in round 1.

I'm not sure why anyone is going for a job for a list he doesn't know inside out.

How does he pass the interviews? How are interviews not descending into this level of detail?

As I type this, I am struck by the reminder of Lyon's commentary about the running capacity of St Kilda's list being a positive. Commentary he made during his first press conference.

I can't shake the feeling that everything we do is shaped by this subconscious desire to avoid a confrontation with reality.

 

[Schnitzengruben]

I wouldn't have thought so. Marshall isn't a top 10 ruck and more than Draper is. Drapers got more hitouts, clearances and goals per game. Rowan is just better at marking around the ground.

Wouldn't those stats be skewed because Marshall has spent large amounts of time forward and Ryder full time rucking with him? Compared to Draper who has largely rucked solo bar a few games here and there with Phillips.

Compare them at the end of this year and see who is leading which stat line. Love Draper but Marshall is clearly better.

 

[citizen-erased]

I'm not sure why anyone is going for a job for a list he doesn't know inside out.

How does he pass the interviews? How are interviews not descending into this level of detail?

As I type this, I am struck by the reminder of Lyon's commentary about the running capacity of St Kilda's list being a positive. Commentary he made during his first press conference.

I can't shake the feeling that everything we do is shaped by this subconscious desire to avoid a confrontation with reality.

I imagine the detail is discussed and there were allusions to the first year being a bit of a feeler/audition period for players.
Scott probably came on too late in the piece to start ruffling the list feathers and having the time to do anything about it.

He also needs to remove dodoro first.
So one step at a time.

For now, embrace that we'll lose more than we win, and probably quite badly.
Scott/Mahoney era will need until 2025 to take shape.

 

[BrunoV]

I imagine the detail is discussed and there were allusions to the first year being a bit of a feeler/audition period for players.
Scott probably came on too late in the piece to start ruffling the list feathers and having the time to do anything about it.

He also needs to remove dodoro first.
So one step at a time.

For now, embrace that we'll lose more than we win, and probably quite badly.
Scott/Mahoney era will need until 2025 to take shape.

Why do you believe Scott isn't all in with the Koolaiders?

It can't just be hope and stability for its sake.

 

[Red Black and Blue]

Wouldn't those stats be skewed because Marshall has spent large amounts of time forward and Ryder full time rucking with him? Compared to Draper who has largely rucked solo bar a few games here and there with Phillips.

Compare them at the end of this year and see who is leading which stat line. Love Draper but Marshall is clearly better.

Draper kicked 3 more goals than a bloke who spent the year forward... Marshall marks around the ground much better but that is all.

 

[mcgrath_truther]

it's a bit absurd to take one performance as an indicator for how the season will go, being all doom and gloom will only sour you more of things go that way

 

[fairbump_playon]

I haven’t watched the second half so this is a genuine, non rhetorical question.

To half time there was not much in the teams. Essendon just didn’t convert in the first quarter. It’s 8 shots on goal each at half time. 17 each at full time. We kicked 1 goal 6 each time we had the wind.

How much did we really get bossed around and how much was just the scoreboard?

 

[Schnitzengruben]

Draper kicked 3 more goals than a bloke who spent the year forward... Marshall marks around the ground much better but that is all.

In 2022, he smashed him in most categories except clearances which can be explained by stints in the forward line and shared ruck duties compared to solo duties for Draper.

Marshall averages way more disposals (even with stints forward) at a higher efficiency and is better marking target around the ground. You could flip a coin for tap-work but the modern ruckman is more than just that.

Come back and revisit this take in September after they've both had a full season as a solo ruck for a fair comparison. Using stats without context for a comparison like this is largely meaningless.

 

[citizen-erased]

Why do you believe Scott isn't all in with the Koolaiders?

It can't just be hope and stability for its sake.

He doesn't strike me as the "suffer fools" type.
He'll either force change at the club, or wait to be sacked next time we feel fuzzy about hirdy.

Im happy to ride the year with a bit of come what may.
Tbh i wouldn't be sad to finish last assuming a different list manager is in the chair.

 

[Vander18]

I'm not sure why anyone is going for a job for a list he doesn't know inside out.

How does he pass the interviews? How are interviews not descending into this level of detail?

As I type this, I am struck by the reminder of Lyon's commentary about the running capacity of St Kilda's list being a positive. Commentary he made during his first press conference.

I can't shake the feeling that everything we do is shaped by this subconscious desire to avoid a confrontation with reality.

That avoidance of reality has certainly been true and is likely still true of parts of the club. Whether it’s true of Mahoney and Scott…..too early to say.

You are preaching to the choir….I advocated including Merrett in a package to get Dunkley! We have 100% been deluded about our list, mids in particular.

 

[mcgrath_truther]

i think it's a bit incredulous to be critical of brad scott a few months into the job, knowing that he hasn't been at the club at all. i think an apt comparison would be to north melbourne, not to say that we're as average as they are, but we've been through enough coaches that i'm sure there's a bit of doubt with senior players within the club. it takes time for coaches coming into the role from outside the club to learn the players and how they play their role/game best.
it'd be best to wait for a few games (say ANZAC day) before people get too critical.

besides, it's a scratch match, they don't matter at all beyond seeing where the club ends up in round 1 most likely

 

[Red Black and Blue]

In 2022, he smashed him in most categories except clearances which can be explained by stints in the forward line and shared ruck duties compared to solo duties for Draper.

Marshall averages way more disposals (even with stints forward) at a higher efficiency and is better marking target around the ground. You could flip a coin for tap-work but the modern ruckman is more than just that.

Come back and revisit this take in September after they've both had a full season as a solo ruck for a fair comparison. Using stats without context for a comparison like this is largely meaningless.

Marshall's extra touches aren't that important because they don't translate into anything. With 6 less touches Draper still averaged more score involvements, goals and clearances. These are the metrics that show the value of possessions. Draper definitely needs to improve on his marking to catch up on Rowan there, but he also offers a lot in the way of physicality and high impact per possession that Rowan simply does not, which will never be translated to the stat sheet.

Agree to come back to it later.

 

[kelvin_sheedy]

Looks like a few people have rocked up to a black tie cocktail party in board shorts and thongs looking for a meat pie.

We are currently a patch quilt side with lots of gaping holes, some good, some bad, mostly unknown. Losses and inconsistent performances will continue for the near future.

You can't build your forward line around Peter Wright or any of our forward as they aren't no. 1 forwards. Our best small forward looks like he's just smashed a family feast at KFC.

Our defenders are all midsized guys. Our mids are too similar and our recent drafting of McGrath, Perkins, Hobbs, Tsatas - all first rounders who are not good enough (yet) to push out our existing midfield base.

The coach? Who knows. I give him at least 12 months before I cast judgement. If he makes us competitive and we can grind out games and a season then thats a win.

Lots of work to do, draft better, trade better and get all the other parts working.

 

[Kong]

Not to overegg the pudding, but some players have contact with some businesspeople who happen to also be coterie members, because the player does a day a week working with them or whatever.

The player benefits in developing their post-footy career, the club benefits because they can use it as an incentive to sign players with the club. But the businessman/coterie member is getting something out of it too in terms of access and tidbits and warm fuzzies helping out their beloved footy club.

Board members also have their own access to players, and some players have more contact with them than others too. Board members are supporters like the rest of us, they wanna know how things are going and have inner sanctum access and tidbits, and they are also responsible for any problems.

Now if a player is unhappy and the board is hearing things from them, and another player is whinging to someone who then shares that with his mates at a coterie function that Sheedy happens to be attending, and the coteries happen to have pull with another board member that also happens to work with a few of them at <firm>…

Meanwhile the team plays like s**t on field and as nuffy supporters they wanna raze the joint to the ground. But unlike ordinary nuffies, they have the means to exert influence…

Like it’s not a conspiracy, it’s just an incestuous old club where everyone knows everyone.

Agree. Sack Dodoro

 

[Lore]

Agree. Sack Dodoro

Better chance of promoting him out than sacking him imo

 

[BrunoV]

ike a few people have rocked up to a black tie cocktail party in board shorts and thongs looking for a meat pie.

We are currently a patch quilt side with lots of gaping holes, some good, some bad, mostly unknown. Losses and inconsistent performances will continue for the near future.

You can't build your forward line around Peter Wright or any of our forward as they aren't no. 1 forwards. Our best small forward looks like he's just smashed a family feast at KFC.

Our defenders are all midsized guys. Our mids are too similar and our recent drafting of McGrath, Perkins, Hobbs, Tsatas - all first rounders who are not good enough (yet) to push out our existing midfield base.

The coach? Who knows. I give him at least 12 months before I cast judgement. If he makes us competitive and we can grind out games and a season then thats a win.

Lots of work to do, draft better, trade better and get all the other parts working.

You talk tough Mr Kelvin, but you think Merrett and Parish are good.

 

[Happyskeret]

35 point loss not good and losing by that in the regular season as an average would be a coach killer. I don’t think practice games mean much but they do mean something. We lowered the saints pants last year when they had pretty good momentum and not many losses previously and after that they spiralled out of control. That win would have meant more to them than us imo. Probably was an incentive for their coach too. I don’t believe Ross Lyon knows his players better than Brad does I just think he was in a commentary position compared to Brad’s AFL position where he had to be more neutral in his opinion compared to someone in the press.
I also believe you can’t judge a coach on their first loss at a new club it’s more about how do they respond to said loss.

 

[Schnitzengruben]

You can't build your forward line around Peter Wright or any of our forward as they aren't no. 1 forwards. Our best small forward looks like he's just smashed a family feast at KFC.

We have many problems, don't get me wrong. But IMO this is by far one of our more glaring issues.

I love Poite but he's not the number 1 guy. A Davey looks like a genuine great small forward and hopefully J Davey is the same. But other than that - the cupboard is very bare.

Menzie, Snelling are limited guys. Stringer is borderline cooked. Jones - jury is out despite a promising start to his career.

We need to use a couple good picks on getting at least 1 genuine medium forward and 1 KPF - at the very minimum.

 

[Shanghaistu]

We always talk about how Scott didn’t have much to work with at North, but in 2015 they featured Goldstein, ziebell, Higgins, Petrie, Ben Brown

50

Ben Brown

Age

31

Ht

200cm

Wt

100kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

10.7

3star

K

7.7

3star

HB

3.0

3star

M

4.8

5star

T

1.2

3star

G

2.2

5star

D

7.9

2star

K

6.3

3star

HB

1.6

1star

M

3.7

4star

T

0.9

2star

G

1.0

4star

D

8.0

2star

K

4.6

2star

HB

3.4

3star

M

4.4

4star

T

1.4

4star

G

1.2

4star

, Dal Santo, Harvey, McDonald, Firrito, Thomas, Tarrant- were / are they significantly worse than our current touted ‘top line’ players?