List Mgmt. 2020 Trade Thread - Part I

[Browny2Carlisle]

Trade one of three

Billings
Gres
or Ross.

Ross

 

[austinnn]

Ross by the length of your famous Flemington Strait. Good balance of low value to us/high value to a successful system

Trade one of three

Billings
Gres
or Ross.

 

[_Maximus_12]

Ross by the length of your famous Flemington Strait. Good balance of low value to us/high value to a successful system

Low value to who? The supporters?

2x B&F winning midfielder at club with no midfield depth... who is also our Vice Captain. I’d say the club values him pretty highly to be fair.

 

[StCicatriz]

Trade one of three

Billings
Gres
or Ross.

if we can get an inside mid: ross

if not: billings

 

[austinnn]

Low value to who? The supporters?

2x B&F winning midfielder at club with no midfield depth... who is also our Vice Captain. I’d say the club values him pretty highly to be fair.

Don't misunderstand: I know we value him highly. I mean he has little value to our team, besides his seniority and relative experience in a battling team.

 

[puppy_dog7]

All this talk of not having midfield depth but wanting to trade Ross is very contradictory. If he’s taking a spot from young players then how do Port manage to play Rockliff, Boak, Ebert, Wines and Powell-Pepper. But we play Ross, Steele and Jones.

we cry out for mid that can go forward and provide a mismatch. Just look at what we were doing with Gresh and Steele before Gresh got injured. They’d rotate and play as the deepest forward. It’s no coincidence that, since then our form has dropped. Ross, like Hanners and a few others also play wing as well.

Mitch Wallis was a full time mid that had to find a spot playing forward. I’m not saying Ross can do that, but I don’t think it’s beyond the realms of possibility to add another string to his bow.

Wallis was pushed out due to, Dunkley, Bont, Macrae and Smith.
Maybe that’s the hope in the future for Bytel, Byrnes and Clark. But clearly they’re not there yet or they’d already be playing there. Just look at the belief Ratts has put in our young defenders in Coff, Long and Paton. Playing them ahead of Sav and Robbo.

I for one think there is still definitely room for a 2 time best and fairest. At least for next year.

 

[Glorious One]

spot on

it doesn't add up.

the one we aren't talking about here is Dunstan. can't believe it but he's contracted until the end of next year.

tbh i think we need to start looking at life without Dunstan and Ross. there was hope Ross would come good, but it hasn't happened. i don't think it will happen. his ball use like Jones is deplorable and his decision making also questionable.

Jones i can live with for now because he has some break away and some bull about what he does. it like merging dunstan and ross into the one player then adding some zip to it.

Billings is another i would look at life without. he's not going to crack it on the wing. doesn't have the drive. so now he's being played forward. you can get a HFF anywhere. they're easier to find.

that gives us a reset on the 2012 and 2013 drafts. probably even 2014 if we are thinking of life without lonie and mckenzie.

Your Honour, the above is exhibit A in how to be in a Carlton like 25 year re-build. Wow.

 

[Sarcoidevo]

Where's Moorabbin Ghost?

Hey MG any inside goss?

 

[cooperg]

Moorabbin Ghost

 

[gringo2011]

technically pelchen was footy boss, ameet list boss, trout head recruiter. then finnis sacked pelchen. if i re-call Jamie Cox was then appointed as footy boss replacing pelchen, a guy with no footy background. ameet was promoted to COO but with TPP responsibilities. trout was made list manager and head recruiter. he continued to be so until 2018 when libba was made head recruiter and trout was just list boss. but libba was there in a senior position of trout's team and was quoted in emmas book along with ameet and trout.

how much input libba had into the various calls we do not know, all we know is he was there.

cox was effectively moved aside at the end of 2017 from memory for lethers
trout was effectively sacked in 2018

so it's like Finnis came in with Summers in 2014. Finnis decided pelchen wasn't up to it. promoted ameet and trout. appointed Jamie Cox. then sometime into 2017 i think we've identified the need for change. Cox was sent packing. in came lethers. who then started to change up the entire footy dept. in 2018 summers stepped down and in came basset. since then:
- new coach
- new list boss
- new head recruiter
- new assistants
- turn over of the list
- lethers promoted to COO
- new footy GM
- turn over of the board somewhat

it's like a complete reset on the footy side

might be wrong here but pretty sure our last big draft was with trout as joint head recruiter and list boss, where we drafted hunter and coffield. next with king was libbas first as head recruiter. there were rumours on here there was a disagreement on who to draft and lethers over-ruled to ensure we snagged king.

He was meant to have been given more of a list management role towards the end of his stint and by the end of 2018 seems to have been in an unspecified role. Impossible to say what his role was with out some inside knowledge. The Age has an article saying he was moved to a different role but unspecified at the start of 2018. I'm not sure what that role was but by the end of it he was gone.

 

[gringo2011]

Experience of what, though? Zero Grand finals. Zero Finals. Zero State of Origin matches. Zero Australia vs Ireland matches. Experience with two coaches before Ratten; Scott Watters and Alan Richardson. Out of the 137 matches he's played in since 2012, how many were wins?

What we need is leaders with the valuable experience of finals football and a successful culture. He would suit going into a new culture that could give him this experience. He's never going to be what we need him to be, time to admit it and move on.

That is every player on our list besides a few half interested guys come for cash. Seb is hardly the problem and his value is so diminished you'd rather have him play until we can get a kid move into his role full time. He's probably worth the least he'll ever be worth right now. At some point we have to start setting for a finals campaign, we'll be in permanent rebuild at this rate.

 

[gringo2011]

Is it worth losing a player with his experience for a pick that has more hope of failure than success. If we can trade him for a player that’s difference but going to the draft is much more likely a downgrade.

Considering Dal turned into Longer and Goddard got us Hickey you'd think we'd have got a little more gun shy by now. Our club can't be trusted to upgrade anything. We'd turn Seb into a vision-impaired one-armed bush footballer with a leather allergy.

 

[plugger66]

Trade one of three

Billings
Gres
or Ross.

I know people need to trade players but I’d keep all of them. If we are trading any of them it must be for a player not a draft pick. No point in going backwards whilst we are going forward.

 

[Joffaboy]

2x B&F winning midfielder at club with no midfield depth....

And thats the point. Someone of his ability winning the B&F in our mids.

Obviously can play, but in a top 8 team is not a B&F winner.

Someone complained that people went on about midfield depth but wanted to trade Ross.
It's not depth, we have plenty of foot soldiers, its top end quality where we have Steele and that's it.

 

[bird_man]

And thats the point. Someone of his ability winning the B&F in our mids.

Obviously can play, but in a top 8 team is not a B&F winner.

Someone complained that people went on about midfield depth but wanted to trade Ross.
It's not depth, we have plenty of foot soldiers, its top end quality where we have Steele and that's it.

How does trading Ross get us top end quality though?

 

[plugger66]

And thats the point. Someone of his ability winning the B&F in our mids.

Obviously can play, but in a top 8 team is not a B&F winner.

Someone complained that people went on about midfield depth but wanted to trade Ross.
It's not depth, we have plenty of foot soldiers, its top end quality where we have Steele and that's it.

But he doesn’t get us top end. He either gets us another foot soldier or a kid who may or may not make it but nearly certainly won’t help in the next couple of years.

 

[gringo2011]

if we can get an inside mid: ross

if not: billings

If you could do a direct swap with Brayshaw or something that is a win win it would be okay but to cash him in for picks is just shooting yourself in the foot because he didn't meet our expectations when we didn't draft champion.

 

[Browny2Carlisle]

It's weird, all we ever say is we have a poor midfield but as soon as someone mentions potentially trading one of the worst offenders in that poor midfield to try get some talent in the pitchforks come out!
Reading things like how he's in his prime and he's just in some bad form and how he's experienced.
Yeah he's got experience. At being in a mid tier team.
He's in his prime yet can't get consistency. He's a guy that tends to play bruise free footy in big important games.

In the end it's all a gamble. We know what he provides and that's middle of the pack at best. Trading him for unproven ready made kids who could be stars or busts might actually improve us. Obviously there's a reason we are considering this if this rumour is true.
Either way, we should be phasing him out of the midfield at some point. Might as well do it while he holds some currency.

 

[RWB4life]

It's weird, all we ever say is we have a poor midfield but as soon as someone mentions potentially trading one of the worst offenders in that poor midfield to try get some talent in the pitchforks come out!
Reading things like how he's in his prime and he's just in some bad form and how he's experienced.
Yeah he's got experience. At being in a mid tier team.
He's in his prime yet can't get consistency. He's a guy that tends to play bruise free footy in big important games.

In the end it's all a gamble. We know what he provides and that's middle of the pack at best. Trading him for unproven ready made kids who could be stars or busts might actually improve us. Obviously there's a reason we are considering this if this rumour is true.
Either way, we should be phasing him out of the midfield at some point. Might as well do it while he holds some currency.

That's a fair way to look at it. But the other way is that we'd be trading out someone who's shown to be at AFL level from a weak midfield already. Even if he was traded for someone better there's still the same amount of good mid fielders.

A better way would be to keep him and push him from our second best mid position to fourth, keeping talent and making spots more competitive.

It's like saying trade out long because we can get Saad or Butler because we can get papley (both completely made up). Yes we need currency to complete traders but ideally you increase the amount of AFL talented players not keep the level the same but slightly improved.

And on another note, Ross would be worth a second rounder or equivalent to Caldwell. While Caldwell will likely have a better career we need to focus on both the now and the future. Next year who would most likely have more of an impact Ross or Caldwell?

I'm not against trading Ross but the deal has to improve the club significantly for it to be worth it.

Ross - Kelly. Sure (obviously not equal value)
Ross - second rounder, much harder to sell.

 

[_Maximus_12]

It's weird, all we ever say is we have a poor midfield but as soon as someone mentions potentially trading one of the worst offenders in that poor midfield to try get some talent in the pitchforks come out!
Reading things like how he's in his prime and he's just in some bad form and how he's experienced.
Yeah he's got experience. At being in a mid tier team.
He's in his prime yet can't get consistency. He's a guy that tends to play bruise free footy in big important games.

In the end it's all a gamble. We know what he provides and that's middle of the pack at best. Trading him for unproven ready made kids who could be stars or busts might actually improve us. Obviously there's a reason we are considering this if this rumour is true.
Either way, we should be phasing him out of the midfield at some point. Might as well do it while he holds some currency.

And thats the point. Someone of his ability winning the B&F in our mids.

Obviously can play, but in a top 8 team is not a B&F winner.

Someone complained that people went on about midfield depth but wanted to trade Ross.
It's not depth, we have plenty of foot soldiers, its top end quality where we have Steele and that's it.

The people suggesting he’s no good, are the same ones saying he’d be of value to the likes of Richmond. So which is it? If he’s good enough to play a role for Richmond, he’s sure a s**t good enough to play a role for us.
If we add two established mids via free agency/trade, then sure, he has less value to us. But until then, trading him for 2 young players who are fringe players is counterproductive to helping our list move forward.

 

[pebblesofsand]

It's weird, all we ever say is we have a poor midfield but as soon as someone mentions potentially trading one of the worst offenders in that poor midfield to try get some talent in the pitchforks come out!
Reading things like how he's in his prime and he's just in some bad form and how he's experienced.
Yeah he's got experience. At being in a mid tier team.
He's in his prime yet can't get consistency. He's a guy that tends to play bruise free footy in big important games.

In the end it's all a gamble. We know what he provides and that's middle of the pack at best. Trading him for unproven ready made kids who could be stars or busts might actually improve us. Obviously there's a reason we are considering this if this rumour is true.
Either way, we should be phasing him out of the midfield at some point. Might as well do it while he holds some currency.

Yeah - and apparently the only way we can get better midfields is by keeping the ones who may have some trade value and then trading the duds for first rounders.

If player "A" is not the type of player we desperately need but has trade value then they should be considered as tradeable - so those on the midfield list would include Billings, Ross and Dunstan.

Since we are not gonna get a 1st rounder for any of those that means we then must be targeting underperforming older players or younger unproven players.

 

[Browny2Carlisle]

That's a fair way to look at it. But the other way is that we'd be trading out someone who's shown to be at AFL level from a weak midfield already. Even if he was traded for someone better there's still the same amount of good mid fielders.

A better way would be to keep him and push him from our second best mid position to fourth, keeping talent and making spots more competitive.

It's like saying trade out long because we can get Saad or Butler because we can get papley (both completely made up). Yes we need currency to complete traders but ideally you increase the amount of AFL talented players not keep the level the same but slightly improved.

And on another note, Ross would be worth a second rounder or equivalent to Caldwell. While Caldwell will likely have a better career we need to focus on both the now and the future. Next year who would most likely have more of an impact Ross or Caldwell?

I'm not against trading Ross but the deal has to improve the club significantly for it to be worth it.

Ross - Kelly. Sure (obviously not equal value)
Ross - second rounder, much harder to sell.

Well see here I disagree. Trading out long or butler for Saad or Papley is the opposite. You're trading out youth and potential for proven good players.

I also believe the premise of this rumour is that it's not the only trade that will happen. Say if Ross gets RCD and CCJ and then a Williams or Viney is picked up via FA is that an overall short term and long term improvement? Yes.
All hypothetical obviously

 

[gringo2011]

It's weird, all we ever say is we have a poor midfield but as soon as someone mentions potentially trading one of the worst offenders in that poor midfield to try get some talent in the pitchforks come out!
Reading things like how he's in his prime and he's just in some bad form and how he's experienced.
Yeah he's got experience. At being in a mid tier team.
He's in his prime yet can't get consistency. He's a guy that tends to play bruise free footy in big important games.

In the end it's all a gamble. We know what he provides and that's middle of the pack at best. Trading him for unproven ready made kids who could be stars or busts might actually improve us. Obviously there's a reason we are considering this if this rumour is true.
Either way, we should be phasing him out of the midfield at some point. Might as well do it while he holds some currency.

He was our second best mid for the last 5 years under Stuv, He's played well enough to win a B&F last year even. He's been s**t this year but he's probably only behind Steele, Gresham and Jones. Both Gresham and Jones have had very uneven seasons too but their best has been better than Seb's. After them we have Sinclair who is a GOP and then Bytel and Byrnes. Hanners is really not worth mentioning as he's good for 5 games a year and probably not going to get better from here.

 

[hayes]

We’ve done the draft for long enough now and trading experienced players keeps us in a rebuilding cycle that will never end. Ross isn’t going anywhere, in a few years he can hopefully be our Andrew Thompson. Experienced senior body guiding what is hopefully a young up and coming midfield. It’s pretty obvious to me this recruiting team has no interest in getting any younger anyway.

 

[Browny2Carlisle]

He was our second best mid for the last 5 years under Stuv, He's played well enough to win a B&F last year even. He's been sh*t this year but he's probably only behind Steele, Gresham and Jones. Both Gresham and Jones have had very uneven seasons too but their best has been better than Seb's. After them we have Sinclair who is a GOP and then Bytel and Byrnes. Hanners is really not worth mentioning as he's good for 5 games a year and probably not going to get better from here.

How many finals have we won in those 5 years?
Same sort of arguments could have been made for not trading Bruce.
What about Clark? Or the potential ins from trades and FA?