Combined Best 22 of dynasty teams in 21st century

[STPer18]

Yeah well Selwood has a grandstand named after him, cop that.

 

[Morro]

None of the Richmond players were above standard level of talent, except Dusty. You won based on a manic pressure system and by systematically infringing opponents to gain an advantage. This is well known.

Cotchin is great in the Richmond system, but wouldn't get a game in a team of champions.

Hahhahahaha this is BF at its best, absolute best!

 

[JAKLAUGHING]

RANCE..........SCARLETT..........GRIMES
HODGE.........TAYLOR.............HOULI
BLACK..........GAZ/JNR...........BARTEL
CRIOLI.........LYNCH..............SEDWARDS
SELWOOD.......JR8..........MITCHELL

NANKS.......MARTIN......COTCHIN

VOSS......CHAPMAN......FRANKLIN......AKKA


BEARS....3
HANDBAGGERS.....6
KENNETTS.......4
REALDYNASTY.....9

Reconsidered...

 

[Underarm]

Selwood at least has leadership capabilities. But agree, he would struggle to make the side over GAJ, Voss, and Black, Mitchell is close.

It's just a coincidence the premierships dried up when Selwood took over?

 

[STPer18]

It's just a coincidence the premierships dried up when Selwood took over?

Overly simplistic way of looking at it and ignoring the quality of players that were at the end of their careers by the time he took over the reigns from Ling. Regardless, three flags in five years is not the norm, so expecting that sort of run to just continue into perpetuity ie six flags over ten years, nine over fifteen in the current era of equalisation is a crazy way to look at things.

If anything you could mount a far stronger argument that despite inheriting a team that was one of the oldest lists of all time post 2011, Selwood was at the forefront of keeping that team constantly competing at the point end and eventually breaking through for another premiership when all and sundry had written his team off, bowing out with his fourth flag at the absolute pinnacle of the sport while the very next year they slumped to mid-table without him at the helm.

 

[KissKiss]

It's just a coincidence the premierships dried up when Selwood took over?

I dont think anyone doubts that he was a great leader. Same with Cotchin. But when you have Voss, Hodge, Mitchell (admittedly not the threepeat) who were premiership captains and winning BnFs, AAs, Brownlows, MVPs, etc during their dynasty's. Then you have a bunch of other captains and vice captains also there abouts in this sort of team.

This sort of team is the absolute best with a few who will likely be pushing into Team of the Century or even All-Time-Greatest Team then their records are just behind IMO

 

[FlowersByIrene]

It's just a coincidence the premierships dried up when Selwood took over?

I think the fact the rest of the core were 34+ may have had something to do with it.

 

[Mr Meow]

I dont think anyone doubts that he was a great leader. Same with Cotchin. But when you have Voss, Hodge, Mitchell (admittedly not the threepeat) who were premiership captains and winning BnFs, AAs, Brownlows, MVPs, etc during their dynasty's. Then you have a bunch of other captains and vice captains also there abouts in this sort of team.

This sort of team is the absolute best with a few who will likely be pushing into Team of the Century or even All-Time-Greatest Team then their records are just behind IMO

I do agree with this based on contributions within their dynasties. Selwood was a gun kid and by all accounts a leader right from the start, but the fact remains that his absolute best work was dragging mediocre sides to prelims 2013-2019 (the latter part of that with Dangerfield) and keeping the side competitive until they were finally good enough in 2022.

Ironically, his best season within the "dynasty period" was actually a year the Cats were a bit off, 2010. 80 coaches votes and 4th in the Brownlow (only Judd, Swan and Ablett ahead - pretty elite compancy) as a 22 year old. He was that type of player that stood up the most when others did not.

Selwood's best group of seasons would be 2013-2017. I strongly believe if this group of seasons coincided with a dynasty he'd be rated higher, but if your timing is off you'll never quite get the same accolades. The AA counts don't lie but winning a Brownlow during the peak Ablett/Judd/Swan era that then span into Fyfe/Dangerfield/Martin was pretty tough.

An 817 coaches and 214 Brownlow vote count is elite. Career wise I don't think there's been much between Black, Mitchell and Selwood unless you heavily focus whether they just barely won a Brownlow or just barely missed out. Or focus on the timing of their best form and whether this was their club's best period. I think those are pretty unfair criteria. But as this was a dynasty merge side based on that, Black and Mitchell would be chosen before Selwood.

As far as Cotchin, great player but outside of having that one truly credentialed season (Brownlow, AFLCA award in 2012) that Selwood couldn't obtain - a playing career a bit below Selwood. 5 AA selections, 224 coaches votes and 66 Brownlow votes behind, playing in the same era. I know that'll induce rage so I hope no Richmond supporters are reading by this point.

 

[Noidnadroj]

I do agree with this based on contributions within their dynasties. Selwood was a gun kid and by all accounts a leader right from the start, but the fact remains that his absolute best work was dragging mediocre sides to prelims 2013-2019 (the latter part of that with Dangerfield) and keeping the side competitive until they were finally good enough in 2022.

Ironically, his best season within the "dynasty period" was actually a year the Cats were a bit off, 2010. 80 coaches votes and 4th in the Brownlow (only Judd, Swan and Ablett ahead - pretty elite compancy) as a 22 year old. He was that type of player that stood up the most when others did not.

Selwood's best group of seasons would be 2013-2017. I strongly believe if this group of seasons coincided with a dynasty he'd be rated higher, but if your timing is off you'll never quite get the same accolades. The AA counts don't lie but winning a Brownlow during the peak Ablett/Judd/Swan era that then span into Fyfe/Dangerfield/Martin was pretty tough.

An 817 coaches and 214 Brownlow vote count is elite. Career wise I don't think there's been much between Black, Mitchell and Selwood unless you heavily focus whether they just barely won a Brownlow or just barely missed out. Or focus on the timing of their best form and whether this was their club's best period. I think those are pretty unfair criteria. But as this was a dynasty merge side based on that, Black and Mitchell would be chosen before Selwood.

As far as Cotchin, great player but outside of having that one truly credentialed season (Brownlow, AFLCA award in 2012) that Selwood couldn't obtain - a playing career a bit below Selwood. 5 AA selections, 224 coaches votes and 66 Brownlow votes behind, playing in the same era. I know that'll induce rage so I hope no Richmond supporters are reading by this point.

I think most of that is fair, as I think everyone (even Tiger tragics) rate Selwood as a superior player overall to Cotchin. Albeit using totals is a bit misleading as Selwood played a lot more games.

And it’s also relevant to point out Selwood walked into a great team (yes, he contributed to this) …. whilst Cotchin walked into a basketcase. So the ability to secure coaches votes and Brownlow votes as a midfielder is certainly easier in a ‘winning team’, particularly one that often thrashed their opposition and the team got 5,4,3,2,1 and 3,2,1 votes.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Noidnadroj]

Something to ponder in relation to the defenders chosen in this team (and any bench defenders).

2017 finals v Richmond:

QF: Geelong score 40. Their lowest score of the season (next lowest 61)

PF: GWS score 67. 4th lowest score for season.

GF: Adelaide score 60, their lowest score of season (66).


2019 finals:

QF: Lions score 65. 4th lowest score of season
PF. Cats score 66. 6th lowest score of season
GF: GWS score 25. Lowest score of season and I believe remains lowest in their history.

2020 finals:
SF: Saints score 49. 4th lowest score of season.
PF Power score 40. Second lowest score of season
GF Cats score 50. 6th lowest score of season. (Their next lowest score at GABBA from 5 other games that season which was their home ground was 82!)

So in their 9 x winning finals to take the 3 x flags Richmond didn’t concede more than 67 points … even if you boost the 2020 scores by 20% to account for shorter games it doesn’t go above 67.

So not sure if the Tiger teams defended themselves …. ?!? But it’s a handy defensive record when it mattered most, particularly as Richmond didn’t really flood the backline.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[BF Tiger]

The OP has posted a good team. I would have Rance in their despite him not playing in two flags. He did play in two premiership seasons. Otherwise no other obvious changes for me, although their will always be debates.

I think if anyone chooses to pick their own team a good exercise would be to pick the next best team. Maybe not the superstars, but a whole lot of quality players still to pick from.

 

[PhatBoy]

The OP has posted a good team. I would have Rance in their despite him not playing in two flags. He did play in two premiership seasons. Otherwise no other obvious changes for me, although their will always be debates.

I think if anyone chooses to pick their own team a good exercise would be to pick the next best team. Maybe not the superstars, but a whole lot of quality players still to pick from.

While I can cop that Rance is probably - and yes no dramas admitting I’m biased - the second best of the key defenders behind Scarlett of all the ones in the mix so wouldn’t look out of place - if the basic rule is that they have to have played in two, he’s not THAT much better than Lake or Leppitsch or Taylor etc that he would get dispensation IMO to be exempt from that criteria.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Something to ponder in relation to the defenders chosen in this team (and any bench defenders).

2017 finals v Richmond:

QF: Geelong score 40. Their lowest score of the season (next lowest 61)

PF: GWS score 67. 4th lowest score for season.

GF: Adelaide score 60, their lowest score of season (66).


2019 finals:

QF: Lions score 65. 4th lowest score of season
PF. Cats score 66. 6th lowest score of season
GF: GWS score 25. Lowest score of season and I believe remains lowest in their history.

2020 finals:
SF: Saints score 49. 4th lowest score of season.
PF Power score 40. Second lowest score of season
GF Cats score 50. 6th lowest score of season. (Their next lowest score at GABBA from 5 other games that season which was their home ground was 82!)

So in their 9 x winning finals to take the 3 x flags Richmond didn’t concede more than 67 points … even if you boost the 2020 scores by 20% to account for shorter games it doesn’t go above 67.

So not sure if the Tiger teams defended themselves …. ?!? But it’s a handy defensive record when it mattered most, particularly as Richmond didn’t really flood the backline.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

To get another idea of how effective Richmond's defence was in its Premiership years, especially in big games, here is a list of Grand Final opponent's individual goals + goal assists who got at least 2, listed amongst Richmond's in those same Grand Finals.

2017-19-20 Grand Final Individual goals + goal assists per GF

6 D Martin 2019, Riewoldt 2019
5 Martin 2020
4 D Rioli 2019 Martin 2017
3 T Lynch 2019 Graham 2017 Lambert 2017 Baker 2020 Lambert 2020 Riewoldt 2020 Menegola 2020
2 Sloane 2017 Walker 2017 C Cameron 2017 Butler 2017 Edwards 2017 Grigg 2017 Riewoldt 2017 Townsend 2017 Prestia 2017 Hopper 2019 J Cameron 2019 Caddy 2019 Bolton 2020 Prestia 2020 Miers 2020

Notable opposition goal kickers in those Grand Finals goals + goal assists:

2019 J Cameron 2, T Greene 0, T Walker 2 C Cameron 2 E Betts 1 Hawkins 1 G Ablett 0

Our defence was superb in these matches, and against some very serious threats.

 

[Caligo]

While I can cop that Rance is probably - and yes no dramas admitting I’m biased - the second best of the key defenders behind Scarlett of all the ones in the mix so wouldn’t look out of place - if the basic rule is that they have to have played in two, he’s not THAT much better than Lake or Leppitsch or Taylor etc that he would get dispensation IMO to be exempt from that criteria.

What I like about Rance is how you couldn't beat him just by outrunning him like you could with most of the best key defenders of the era. I feel the same way about Gibson and Taylor though. They all did well on hard running key forwards like Franklin and Reiwoldt.

Agree that Scarlett is first chosen regardless. The issue is just picking his partner.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Attended a private members function in 2011 where Mark Evans addressed the small crowd and told of the clubs desire/need to capitalize over the coming years on the two generational players and leaders in the middle, Mitchell and Hodge.

It’s hard to fit all players in to a side like this, but do find it odd how many times Mitchell gets pushed aside in these sorts of threads.
It’s unpopular opinion, but his tenure, tenacity and particularly his ball use makes him one of the greatest mids the game IMO has seen because not only did he find himself on the bottom of packs continuously extracting to others, but in open play there was almost no one better at directing the flow of play and completely opening up the transition of the ball from one side of the ground to another direct channel to goal by foot.

Hard task to put this side together though.

Mitchell was easily a better player than cotchin. I’d simply remove cotchin and put mitchel in

 

[geelong_crazy26]

To get another idea of how effective Richmond's defence was in its Premiership years, especially in big games, here is a list of Grand Final opponent's individual goals + goal assists who got at least 2, listed amongst Richmond's in those same Grand Finals.

2017-19-20 Grand Final Individual goals + goal assists per GF

6 D Martin 2019, Riewoldt 2019
5 Martin 2020
4 D Rioli 2019 Martin 2017
3 T Lynch 2019 Graham 2017 Lambert 2017 Baker 2020 Lambert 2020 Riewoldt 2020 Menegola 2020
2 Sloane 2017 Walker 2017 C Cameron 2017 Butler 2017 Edwards 2017 Grigg 2017 Riewoldt 2017 Townsend 2017 Prestia 2017 Hopper 2019 J Cameron 2019 Caddy 2019 Bolton 2020 Prestia 2020 Miers 2020

Notable opposition goal kickers in those Grand Finals goals + goal assists:

2019 J Cameron 2, T Greene 0, T Walker 2 C Cameron 2 E Betts 1 Hawkins 1 G Ablett 0

Our defence was superb in these matches, and against some very serious threats.

Your obsessions and hurt at others not rating Richmonds premiership group goes to very desperate and intensely time consuming pursuits. It comes off very desperate and dramatic

 

[geelong_crazy26]

I have always been of the opinion that rucks are overrated... unless you are also a star around the ground eg. Dean Cox, Max Gawn.

A good serviceable ruck who can mitigate hit outs to advantage from his opposition ruck is all that is needed in a flag side, didn't the Tigers win a flag with Grigg in the ruck.

A classy overall midfield wins flags IMO.

Call me bias… but I would genuinely take brad ottens over max gawn or dean cox. Simply because he was capable of playing as a very good key forward and was a huge finals player.

 

[Caligo]

Call me bias… but I would genuinely take brad ottens over max gawn or dean cox. Simply because he was capable of playing as a very good key forward and was a huge finals player.

Dean Cox was so good you could pick him even if he wasn't rucking. I think if he is eligible you need to pick him in any team.

Guy was a freak. It just isn't fair. You shouldn't get to be that tall and that good.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Your obsessions and hurt at others not rating Richmonds premiership group goes to very desperate and intensely time consuming pursuits. It comes off very desperate and dramatic

Whilst evil Richmond haters are at large spreading their anti-Richmond poison I will always remain devoted to revealing the truth G_C, you can rest assured of that.

When Sam Mengoala kicked that late set shot goal Cris Scott predicted would precipitate a Geelong victory if he converted it, he became the 12th player in Richmond's 3 Grand Finals of 2017-19-20 to record at least 3 goals + goal assists in one of those Grand Finals.

And the first and only non Richmond player. You should be very proud of Sam.

 

[Mr Meow]

Whilst evil Richmond haters are at large spreading their anti-Richmond poison I will always remain devoted to revealing the truth G_C, you can rest assured of that.

When Sam Mengoala kicked that late set shot goal Cris Scott predicted would precipitate a Geelong victory if he converted it, he because the 12th player in Richmond's 3 Grand Finals of 2017-19-20 to record 3 goals + goal assists in one of those Grand Finals.

And the first and only non Richmond player. You should be very proud of Sam.

Just a reminder, you put GRIMES ahead of Scarlett.

And from the highest scoring team of the four, one starting midfielder and no starting forwards. So they were the most prolific but get almost no representation, while the most stingy (just) side got 3 starting defenders.

Above is what you call a staggering level of bias for one team and against another.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Dean Cox was so good you could pick him even if he wasn't rucking. I think if he is eligible you need to pick him in any team.

Guy was a freak. It just isn't fair. You shouldn't get to be that tall and that good.

Not arguing that or claiming people would have ottens ahead.. just my own bias probably, but ottens is easily the best genuine ruck/key forward I have seen in the past few decades. Could take a very strong contested mark and convert. Rare ability in a modern day ruck

 

[Mr Meow]

This is going purely off their form during the dynasty years. Needing to play in 2 of their dynasty flags. I contemplated making an exception for Franklin, but decided to highlight Hawks who contributed most across 2013-2015.

FB: J.Gibson - Scarlett - Enright
HB: Hodge (vc) - Leppitsch - Houli
C: Lappin - Voss (c) - Smith
HF: Akermanis - Roughead - D.Martin
FF: S.Johnson - Riewoldt - Chapman
RR: Ottens - S.Mitchell - Ablett
INT: Black - Rioli - Bartel - C.Johnson

Hawkins and Selwood peaked after 2011. Likewise Taylor (not strictly AA in any flag year), even though he was superb in the '09 grand final. Cotchin was at his best before '17-'20. These players were still all very good during the flag years, but not as good as the ones who made this team.

I think people have slept on how elite Houli, Smith and Roughead were in their positions during their premierships.

Chapman was a freak 2007-2011.

S.Mitchell edges out Black for a starting spot.

Bartel in partly on versatility - he was strong anywhere through midfield or up forward so would be a perfect rotation for Martin, Aker etc.

Was a tough choice out of Birchall, C.Johnson or Burgoyne. In the end I thought Brisbane's rebounding defence deserved some more recognition.

Geelong: 7
Hawthorn: 6
Brisbane: 6
Richmond: 3

My "reserves" team, as someone suggested. Still based on dynasty contribution and minimum 2 premierships.

FB: Vlastuin Lake Grimes
HB: Birchall Taylor Mackie
C: Edwards Lewis Hill
HF: Power T.Lynch Hart
FF: Hawkins A.Lynch Breust
FOL: Keating Cotchin Selwood
IC: Prestia Corey Gunston Milburn

 

[Caligo]

Not arguing that or claiming people would have ottens ahead.. just my own bias probably, but ottens is easily the best genuine ruck/key forward I have seen in the past few decades. Could take a very strong contested mark and convert. Rare ability in a modern day ruck

Ottens definitely unfairly underrated for his genuine rucking ability.

The other ruck I always felt never got enough praise was Mumford for sheer violence, which as a thug in a different sport I have a special respect for.

Still Cox for me though.

 

[JAKLAUGHING]

Your obsessions and hurt at others not rating Richmonds premiership group goes to very desperate and intensely time consuming pursuits. It comes off very desperate and dramatic

Yeah but his figures do not lie!
Simply the best defensive unit out of the Dynasty teams!

 

[Fadge]

Yeah but his figures do not lie!
Simply the best defensive unit out of the Dynasty teams!

Or played the weaker opposition in their finals series...