Banter The Adelaide Board Politics/COVID Thread Part 2 (WARNING NOT FOR THE FAINT-HEARTED)

[adelaidecrows]

Brady | Which Senators Have Benefitted the Most from NRA Money?

They've taken money from the NRA, all while blocking lifesaving gun safety legislation.

elections.bradyunited.org

Every American politician that has ever taken NRA money or voted against any type of gun reform should be forced to fly down to Texas and see first hand the damage that an assault rifle can inflict on a small child.
Then explain to grieving parents why gun law reform is unnecessary.

Asking parents to DNA swab for ID purposes because the massacre rendered the kids unrecognizable is absolutely horrific.

I completely agree with a tweet I read today that said something like.

Forced birth in a country that refuses to protect children from being murdered at school.

Or the Texas judge who about a decade ago ruled only the first line of the amendment counts. If its in the constitution, it cant be ruled against. Anti gun campaigners tried to go through court to get guns made illegal based on the technical wording, and a suburban judge ruled against the constitution and no one batted an eye, and no one appealed the decision. It was also revealed this judge was up for re-election soon and i bet you will never guess who had contributed heavily to his campaign. But the fact he deemed he was entitled to interpret the constitution how he liked was scary. And no one cared.

 

[StonesThrow]

I don't know how you couldn't like Jim jefferies

 

[Vader]

I've been thinking more about the Dai Le situation, and I think she's still in a world of trouble - even if she doesn't fall foul of the dreaded Section 44.

Dai Le claims to have ticked the box stating that she has NEVER been a citizen of another country. This statement is patently and demonstrably false, and even the best case scenario for her is that she has made a false statement on her candidate nomination form. There are already Labor & Liberal candidates who have been referred to the AFP for making false statements on their forms (theirs related to telling porkies about their residential addresses), and I fully expect Dai Le to be referred to the AFP as well.

Dai Le was born in South Vietnam, to South Vietnamese parents. She was born a citizen of South Vietnam, and automatically gained citizenship of Vietnam when North & South Vietnam were unified at the end of the Vietnam war. Even if we assume that becoming an Australian citizen extinguished her previous Vietnamese citizenship, she was still a Vietnamese citizen until the day she became a naturalised Australian. Thus, her statement (in her candidate nomination form) that she had never been a citizen of another country is flat out wrong. Wishful thinking does not trump legal reality.

The next question is what impact this has on the election result? Does it render her candidacy ineligible? If so, what happens to all the votes she received? Do they need to hold a by-election, or do they simply remove her from the voting and reallocate the votes she received?

 

[1970crow]

I don't know how you couldn't like Jim jefferies

Surely everyone loves him.

 

[arrowman]

Do you have any precedent for people automatically having their citizenship transferred from 1 country to another without their informed consent? Not how it theoretically could be the case, or a vaderesque gut feel, but an actual example.

No, Your Honour, I do not have a precedent and I don't know how it worked in the case of Vietnam. My gut tells me that if a country is absorbed into another country, the citizens of that country would be left stateless if the citizenship was not automatically transferred, so maybe it's actually doing them a favour. After all, they're still (for the time being at least) living in that "new" country, it would not be good to deny them citizenship.

But anyway - it seems there are several possibilities:
1. She did not automatically become a citizen of Vietnam, therefore stateless. This seems to me to be unlikely.
2. She became a citizen of Vietnam, but that citizenship was extinguished when she became an Australian citizen (up to 2008, anyway). At least, that's what Google tells me about Vietnamese citizenship laws.
3. If she became an Aus citizen after 2008, did that automatically extinguish her Vietnam citizenship? Not sure.

And if she became an Aus citizen as a child, she might not be aware of the situation regarding her Vietnamese citizenship unless / until it became an issue / question for her in later life.

Point being, either she knew what the situation was, and that she was not a citizen of Vietnam, or she believed / assumed what it was. If she knew, all good, play on. If she believed / assumed, it may still be all good, but it was foolish of her to not confirm the situation as in "hang about, this is important, I need to confirm and not just assume".

Dai Le claims to have ticked the box stating that she has NEVER been a citizen of another country. This statement is patently and demonstrably false

All I've got for that one is hmmm... That is a different kettle of fish.

 

[Mr_Moogle]

Surely everyone loves him.

His bit on American gun culture will remain eternally relevant.

 

[1970crow]

I don't know how you couldn't like Jim jefferies

Another awesome gun control piece was the “that’s my point”. Couldn’t find it without the morning show intro though. Like Jim, can watch it over and over.

 

[GreyCrow]

I've been thinking more about the Dai Le situation, and I think she's still in a world of trouble - even if she doesn't fall foul of the dreaded Section 44.

Dai Le claims to have ticked the box stating that she has NEVER been a citizen of another country. This statement is patently and demonstrably false, and even the best case scenario for her is that she has made a false statement on her candidate nomination form. There are already Labor & Liberal candidates who have been referred to the AFP for making false statements on their forms (theirs related to telling porkies about their residential addresses), and I fully expect Dai Le to be referred to the AFP as well.

Dai Le was born in South Vietnam, to South Vietnamese parents. She was born a citizen of South Vietnam, and automatically gained citizenship of Vietnam when North & South Vietnam were unified at the end of the Vietnam war. Even if we assume that becoming an Australian citizen extinguished her previous Vietnamese citizenship, she was still a Vietnamese citizen until the day she became a naturalised Australian. Thus, her statement (in her candidate nomination form) that she had never been a citizen of another country is flat out wrong. Wishful thinking does not trump legal reality.

The next question is what impact this has on the election result? Does it render her candidacy ineligible? If so, what happens to all the votes she received? Do they need to hold a by-election, or do they simply remove her from the voting and reallocate the votes she received?

Go back and read the Frydenburg judgement

 

[Vader]

Go back and read the Frydenburg judgement

Frydenberg's parents were officially stateless when they came to Australia.

Le's parents were not. Being a refugee does not automatically make you stateless.

 

[1970crow]

Go back and read the Frydenburg judgement

Yep, anybody arguing this stops at not ticking a box or sending a letter to the Vietnamese govt has NFI what they’re talking about. Not surprised Vader is one as he’s a lifetime public servant, so correctly filling out forms is all he’d know.

 

[1970crow]

Frydenberg's parents were officially stateless when they came to Australia.

Le's parents were not. Being a refugee does not automatically make you stateless.

No they weren’t, they were ruled as being officially stateless by a court decades later. You’re well out of your depth with your certainty on this.

 

[Slippery Pete]

 

[fortunatecrow]

I am intrigued with the idea that events outside a person's control can apparently change their citizenship.

Could Kim Jong-Un confer North Korean citizenship on an Australian PM, thereby disqualifying them from office?

 

[1970crow]

I am intrigued with the idea that events outside a person's control can apparently change their citizenship.

Could Kim Jong-Un confer North Korean citizenship on an Australian PM, thereby disqualifying them from office?

There’s some very simplistic thinking going on. Kirky and Vader both need to see a box ticked on a form, that’s the depth of their understanding. No tick, no seat. Simples.

 

[Vader]

The depth of the LNP's lack of care for Australians stranded overseas during COVID revealed, in a letter from Australian High Commissioner (George Brandis) to (then) Foreign Minister (Marise Payne):
Marise Payne was warned flight caps would strand thousands of Australians overseas

The LNP decided to close the borders, to keep COVID out. So far so good, and only complete ****wits like SP would argue that this was a bad decision. This created "perverse market incentives", which made it almost impossible for anyone other than the uber-rich to get home to Australia. This forced many people to overstay their visas, meaning that they were unable to work and were no longer eligible for access to health care - they were forced into destitution.

Brandis, and other Ambassadors & High Commissioners wrote letters & diplomatic cables to the Foreign Minister. The response was .... <crickets>. The sociopaths in the LNP created this problem, and refused to do anything whatsoever about it.

As previously noted, I (along with anyone with a brain not parked in neutral) fully supported the border closures. This decision saved 10s of thousands of Australian lives. However, it also perverted the market for airline tickets, for people wanting to fly home to Australia.

What the LNP should have done was to address this market perversion, ensuring that ordinary Australians who wanted/needed to come home were able to do so. Having changed the market conditions, as a result of changing their policy settings, the onus was on them to mitigate the impact their decisions had. They did bupkus.

I do not object to the border closures - I object to the LNP's failure to do anything whatsoever to address the market perversions that this decision created.

This is just one in a conga line of examples, showing why the sociopaths in the LNP were unfit for office - and why Australia was so right to reject them last weekend.

 

[Vader]

I am intrigued with the idea that events outside a person's control can apparently change their citizenship.

Could Kim Jong-Un confer North Korean citizenship on an Australian PM, thereby disqualifying them from office?

Kim Jong-Un has conferred citizenship on Dennis Rodman...

Presumably the Australian PM would be afforded the opportunity to renounce any such citizenships.

Candidates are required to take all reasonable steps to ensure that they are not dual citizens. From memory, there was one MP who was born in Iran, and it is not possible to renounce Iranian citizenship. He took all reasonable steps, and the High Court determined that he was not ineligible. Presumably the same luxury would be afforded to anyone who involuntarily becomes a citizen of another country.

 

[arrowman]

I am intrigued with the idea that events outside a person's control can apparently change their citizenship.

Could Kim Jong-Un confer North Korean citizenship on an Australian PM, thereby disqualifying them from office?

Not a good analogy - that would be North Korea forcibly imposing citizenship on a citizen of another country, who lives in another country. As I posted earlier, when South Vietnam was merged with North Vietnam, there would have been two options:
1. Make all citizens of South Vietnam, citizens of Vietnam, or
2. Leave them stateless even as they live in the country.

You can argue that Vietnamese citizenship was "forced on" those people, but the alternative - leaving them stateless and non-citizens of the country they live in - would be worse, surely.

 

[Mutineer]

The depth of the LNP's lack of care for Australians stranded overseas during COVID revealed, in a letter from Australian High Commissioner (George Brandis) to (then) Foreign Minister (Marise Payne):
Marise Payne was warned flight caps would strand thousands of Australians overseas

The LNP decided to close the borders, to keep COVID out. So far so good, and only complete ****wits like SP would argue that this was a bad decision. This created "perverse market incentives", which made it almost impossible for anyone other than the uber-rich to get home to Australia. This forced many people to overstay their visas, meaning that they were unable to work and were no longer eligible for access to health care - they were forced into destitution.

Brandis, and other Ambassadors & High Commissioners wrote letters & diplomatic cables to the Foreign Minister. The response was .... <crickets>. The sociopaths in the LNP created this problem, and refused to do anything whatsoever about it.

As previously noted, I (along with anyone with a brain not parked in neutral) fully supported the border closures. This decision saved 10s of thousands of Australian lives. However, it also perverted the market for airline tickets, for people wanting to fly home to Australia.

What the LNP should have done was to address this market perversion, ensuring that ordinary Australians who wanted/needed to come home were able to do so. Having changed the market conditions, as a result of changing their policy settings, the onus was on them to mitigate the impact their decisions had. They did bupkus.

I do not object to the border closures - I object to the LNP's failure to do anything whatsoever to address the market perversions that this decision created.

This is just one in a conga line of examples, showing why the sociopaths in the LNP were unfit for office - and why Australia was so right to reject them last weekend.

Weren't you the bloke that insisted going on the cruise regardless?

 

[kirky]

Not a good analogy - that would be North Korea forcibly imposing citizenship on a citizen of another country, who lives in another country. As I posted earlier, when South Vietnam was merged with North Vietnam, there would have been two options:
1. Make all citizens of South Vietnam, citizens of Vietnam, or
2. Leave them stateless even as they live in the country.

You can argue that Vietnamese citizenship was "forced on" those people, but the alternative - leaving them stateless and non-citizens of the country they live in - would be worse, surely.

Anytime anyone mentions North Korea that is not a good analogy.

 

[kirky]

There’s some very simplistic thinking going on. Kirky and Vader both need to see a box ticked on a form, that’s the depth of their understanding. No tick, no seat. Simples.

Really?

Strangely it is one of the reasons I retired early, the internal processes required lots of ticking boxes and unnecessary tasks which didn’t improve the overall process.

Mind you I did have to tick 4 boxes on each Declaration Vote I issued last Saturday.

 

[MrKK]

The depth of the LNP's lack of care for Australians stranded overseas during COVID revealed, in a letter from Australian High Commissioner (George Brandis) to (then) Foreign Minister (Marise Payne):
Marise Payne was warned flight caps would strand thousands of Australians overseas

The LNP decided to close the borders, to keep COVID out. So far so good, and only complete ****wits like SP would argue that this was a bad decision. This created "perverse market incentives", which made it almost impossible for anyone other than the uber-rich to get home to Australia. This forced many people to overstay their visas, meaning that they were unable to work and were no longer eligible for access to health care - they were forced into destitution.

Brandis, and other Ambassadors & High Commissioners wrote letters & diplomatic cables to the Foreign Minister. The response was .... <crickets>. The sociopaths in the LNP created this problem, and refused to do anything whatsoever about it.

As previously noted, I (along with anyone with a brain not parked in neutral) fully supported the border closures. This decision saved 10s of thousands of Australian lives. However, it also perverted the market for airline tickets, for people wanting to fly home to Australia.

What the LNP should have done was to address this market perversion, ensuring that ordinary Australians who wanted/needed to come home were able to do so. Having changed the market conditions, as a result of changing their policy settings, the onus was on them to mitigate the impact their decisions had. They did bupkus.

I do not object to the border closures - I object to the LNP's failure to do anything whatsoever to address the market perversions that this decision created.

This is just one in a conga line of examples, showing why the sociopaths in the LNP were unfit for office - and why Australia was so right to reject them last weekend.

Treatment of overseas citizens was disgraceful but it's a fantasy to think it would've been any different under an ALP government. Saint Jacinda across the ditch had the same policies in place.

 

[George Kramer]

Treatment of overseas citizens was disgraceful but it's a fantasy to think it would've been any different under an ALP government. Saint Jacinda across the ditch had the same policies in place.

Dan and Mark wouldn't let their residents back in the state, so you are most probably correct

 

[1970crow]

How insane are the Greens? Labor confirmed that their policy was to turn back boats when it’s safe to do so. Now they crack it because Labor is representing those that voted for them instead of the 10% that voted for the Greens. Hopefully Labor hold firm.

 

[arrowman]

Presented without comment....

 

[Mutineer]

Treatment of overseas citizens was disgraceful but it's a fantasy to think it would've been any different under an ALP government. Saint Jacinda across the ditch had the same policies in place.

Anyone with half a brain could work that out but that's "centrist" Vader all over when it comez to the LNP.