Opinion VICBias - Genuine Discussion

[Apsaalooke]

The Australian Football world did.

Literally.

So what. England doesn't own golf, tennis and soccer

 

[Port Adel Proud]

So now it is larger stadiums that is the criteria?

Poor old Hobart just doesn't make the cut. You are adding in your own bias because it suits your position.

The moral to the story. Build it and they might come.

 

[The Warlord]

So what. England doesn't own golf, tennis and soccer

And yet it is the centre of political and economic gravity for all those sports, or its former colonies are.

Poor argument.

 

[The Warlord]

I could actually get down with the parochialism of the non Vic states/supporters if they actually lived it.

When Celtic won the 1967 European Cup every player was born within 30 miles of Parkhead.

West Coast moan and moan about the Vics, yet three of their four flags were coached by Victorians.

Their current coach and captain are Victorian.

Seems like having a bob each way to me.

 

[Baird]

I have a genuine question as to why teams complain about a #VICBIAS , but before you answer why you think there is one, please read these facts before you do:

All these facts were before each club CHOSE to enter the competition, not changed after-

- The GF has been locked in at the G for years, that was the case before any club entered from outside Vic, and let's be honest, as the home of footy, was never likely to be changed either
- In fact, at the time of entering the comp, at least 1 Prelim was meant to be guaranteed at the G also, that has actually moved back to teams earning the right to host
- When choosing to enter the comp, there was already 10 teams in Melb... THIS IS NOT NEW. Non-Vic teams where always going to have to travel every second week while Vic teams play away games still in VIC. Where do you expect Vic teams to play away games against other Vic teams... no seriously, where?
- People whinge it's still the old VFL... It is, the AFL is not a newly formed comp, it is a rebranded/renamed version of the existing comp non Vic teams again CHOSE to join

On the flip side, things that are now (or at one time have been) in place that weren't in place before No Vic teams joined the comp:

- National draft, gone are the days every kid in a zone was linked to that club. By weight of numbers alone, Vic produces the most talent at U18 levels, and that is now open and available to ALL teams to select talent in the draft
- Academy Zones, traditionally for non Vic states, even though now each club has its own zone.
- Salary Cap relief/Cola, again for periods of time, Non Vic teams at one time or another have been given advantages not afforded to Vic Teams

Now I'm a West Australian, and if there was a proper SOO match tomorrow, I would be in the Sandgropers corner in a heart beat, so this is not coming from your "typical Victorian"...
And I certainly appreciate and respect the fact that Non-Vic teams have to travel a hell of a lot more than Vic teams...

So the question, honestly is this, if each Non-Vic club knew all of these FACTS before they CHOSE to enter the competition, why is there all a sudden a cry of #VICBIAS

If it was soooo bad, why did your clubs still want to enter the competition?

Just ignore non-victorians dude. They have a remarkably low IQ, as well as a huge victim complex.

 

[Freomaniac]

Interesting. Do you have any further details on this?

Andrew demitrious did an investigation on struggling victorian clubs around 2006, that is certain

 

[The Warlord]

The moral to the story. Build it and they might come.

So why didn't the Western Australians build a stadium to hold what the MCG does when they had the chance a few years ago?

They had a blank sheet. Could have built anything.

 

[Freomaniac]

You've obviously never been to a prelim at Adelaide Oval with over 50,000 fans in a cauldron. The atmosphere and noise is electric.

I was there in that 2017 Prelim final as a neutral, so I have to agree

 

[Choppers]

OK.

Let's play this game. And as the Richmond posters will attest, it is a rare old day when I go to crowd numbers.

But, here we are.

Why has WA never been able to draw a crowd to an Australian Football game that's even HALF of the Victorian record?

It is because the VFL was always the dominant league. The centre of political and economic gravity in Australian football has ALWAYS been in Melbourne.

Always has been, always will be. Just get over it.

State	Attendance	Year	League	Event	Venue	Sold out ?
Victoria	121,686	1970	VFL	Grand Final – Carlton v Collingwood	MCG, Melbourne	Yes
New South Wales	72,393	2003	AFL	Round 21 – Sydney Swans v. Collingwood	Telstra Stadium, Sydney	No
South Australia	66,987	1976	SANFL	Grand Final – Sturt vs Port Adelaide	Football Park, Adelaide	Yes
Western Australia	59,585	2018	AFL	Qualifying Final - West Coast v Collingwood	Optus Stadium, Perth	Yes
Queensland	37,478	2019	AFL	Qualifying Final – Brisbane Lions vs Richmond	Gabba, Brisbane	Yes
Tasmania	24,968	1979	TFL	Grand Final – Glenorchy v Clarence	North Hobart Oval, Hobart	Yes
Northern Territory	17,500	2002	AFL (pre-season practice)	Aboriginal All-Stars vs Carlton	Marrara Oval, Darwin	Yes
Australian Capital Territory	14,974	2016	AFL	Round 19 – Greater Western Sydney Giants vs Richmond	Manuka Oval, Canberra	Yes

From an outsider looking in....I reckon you got Perth covered in attendance but notso Adelaide...

In 1970 Melbournes population was 2,499,000 so the attendance was 4.86% of the pop. (both Melb teams)

In 2018 Perths was 1,991,000 so only 2.99% attended that particular game.But it was a PF and not a GF. (vs.1 interstate team) and at 2.99% of pop, that is more than HALF of the Victorian record, imo.

But in 1976 in the SANFL GF the attendance was 66,987 or 7.12% of the then pop. of 940,000. (both Adel. teams) which in terms of avail population, Adelaide wins that little debate.

Just sayin'........

 

[RUNVS]

I could actually get down with the parochialism of the non Vic states/supporters if they actually lived it.

When Celtic won the 1967 European Cup every player was born within 30 miles of Parkhead.

West Coast moan and moan about the Vics, yet three of their four flags were coached by Victorians.

Their current coach and captain are Victorian.

Seems like having a bob each way to me.

and when was the last time a Victorian club won a premiership with no non-Victorian players or coaches?

 

[BlueandGoldforever]

I have a genuine question as to why teams complain about a #VICBIAS , but before you answer why you think there is one, please read these facts before you do:

All these facts were before each club CHOSE to enter the competition, not changed after-

- The GF has been locked in at the G for years, that was the case before any club entered from outside Vic, and let's be honest, as the home of footy, was never likely to be changed either
- In fact, at the time of entering the comp, at least 1 Prelim was meant to be guaranteed at the G also, that has actually moved back to teams earning the right to host
- When choosing to enter the comp, there was already 10 teams in Melb... THIS IS NOT NEW. Non-Vic teams where always going to have to travel every second week while Vic teams play away games still in VIC. Where do you expect Vic teams to play away games against other Vic teams... no seriously, where?
- People whinge it's still the old VFL... It is, the AFL is not a newly formed comp, it is a rebranded/renamed version of the existing comp non Vic teams again CHOSE to join

On the flip side, things that are now (or at one time have been) in place that weren't in place before No Vic teams joined the comp:

- National draft, gone are the days every kid in a zone was linked to that club. By weight of numbers alone, Vic produces the most talent at U18 levels, and that is now open and available to ALL teams to select talent in the draft
- Academy Zones, traditionally for non Vic states, even though now each club has its own zone.
- Salary Cap relief/Cola, again for periods of time, Non Vic teams at one time or another have been given advantages not afforded to Vic Teams

Now I'm a West Australian, and if there was a proper SOO match tomorrow, I would be in the Sandgropers corner in a heart beat, so this is not coming from your "typical Victorian"...
And I certainly appreciate and respect the fact that Non-Vic teams have to travel a hell of a lot more than Vic teams...

So the question, honestly is this, if each Non-Vic club knew all of these FACTS before they CHOSE to enter the competition, why is there all a sudden a cry of #VICBIAS

If it was soooo bad, why did your clubs still want to enter the competition?

Your statement ignores the state of Australian Rules football around the country at the time.

Research seems to be a forgotten skill these days.

All state competitions - the VFL, WAFL, SANFL etc - were broke. The VFL was poaching all the best players from WA and SA. By 1986 there were close to 40 of WA's best players playing in the VFL. It was affecting the quality of the WAFL and no doubt the SAFL.

All leagues were moving, albeit slowly, to professionalism.

Various senior people in and around football had written detailed reports stating the need for a national league. In these reports - and I have read all of them - the over-arching concept was a for truly national competition. One report even detailed new teams and a timeline.

Anyway, the VFL was deemed the strongest at the time so it was assumed over time that a national competition would see some of those clubs disappear over time, as Ross Oakley tried to do. In fact, Ross Oakley's ideal model was a 14-team competition - six clubs from Victoria, two from WA, two from SA, two from QLD and two from NSW.

The West Coast Eagles and the Brisbane Lions each paid $4 million each to join the then expanded VFL competition in 1986. They were given vastly reduced squads of 35 each and the Eagles even played matches on a Sunday afternoon and then backed up on a Friday night.

The WAFL and SANFL thought it was the only way they would survive and from reading detailed internal reports from WA they were completely oblivious to the effect of forming the West Coast Eagles would have on the WAFL.

When it became the AFL in 1990, it was supposed to become a true national competition increasing the number of clubs from different states.

Without writing a thesis, the underlying presumption that a truly national competition would be fair and equal and not different rules for different clubs, as happens now.

A truly national competition was the only way Australian Rules football was going to survive in this state. So, it was a question of survival.

 

[bluespooner]

and when was the last time a Victorian club won a premiership with no non-Victorian players or coaches?

Quite right.

Hawthorn's 2014 winning side had more NSW players than the Sydney swans.

 

[Quinz]

Have to laugh at a Sydney fan complaining about bias, hypocrite much?

Far be it from me to defend Sydney against bias when I'm still bitter about 2005 Barry Hall. But they did also get a ludicrous trade ban recently that doesn't get nearly as much coverage as it deserves.

I think we all agree that the G hosting the GF gives certain clubs a leg up, but having said that it means that it can be more difficult for those same clubs to actually make the GF. Have a look at 2018, Richmond finished clear on top then had to play the QF against Hawks, no HGA, then a prelim against the Pies, no HGA, this doesnt happen to the interstate sides. How many home finals have West Coast hosted that werent against an interstate travelling side.

They have more fans than Hawthorn so surely that's the main HGA if I've been following the 'neutral crowds = neutral GF' train of thought! Of course that's not the case really. You're right on the 2018 point.

On the flip side in 2018 Collingwood/Hawthorn can finish 3rd or 4th and only have to win at home to win the flag.

If a non Victorian team finishes outside the top 2 they will almost certainly need to win 2 finals on the road which is very difficult. The last 4 Victorian premiers have missed the top 2 and won against travelling teams in the big one. Dom Sheed stopped it being 5 straight.

 

[Port Adel Proud]

So why didn't the Western Australians build a stadium to hold what the MCG does when they had the chance a few years ago?

They had a blank sheet. Could have built anything.

Simple answer really. W.C.E needed a small enough stadium so that it could continue to charge $75 to $100 a seat.

 

[The Warlord]

From an outsider looking in....I reckon you got Perth covered in attendance but notso Adelaide...

In 1970 Melbournes population was 2,499,000 so the attendance was 4.86% of the pop. (both Melb teams)

In 2018 Perths was 1,991,000 so only 2.99% attended that particular game.But it was a PF and not a GF. (vs.1 interstate team) and at 2.99% of pop, that is more than HALF of the Victorian record, imo.

But in 1976 in the SANFL GF the attendance was 66,987 or 7.12% of the then pop. of 940,000. (both Adel. teams) which in terms of avail population, Adelaide wins that little debate.

Just sayin'........

I like your thinking here, but if the capacity of the G had been higher, we may well have seen more at the G that day.

I'm a very proud Victorian but also support a small (the smallest of the Vic) clubs.

I believe the best team should get a home Grand Final. If West Coast finish on top and make the GF, it should be played at their home ground in Perth.

But I also understand why the long term contract with the G was signed. Because the league is fundamentally about revenue, not fairness. And that goes a long way - there'll always be two Derbies and two Showdowns as a result.

Is there #VICBIAS in that there's more media, and a Victorian-centric flavour to the comp in general?

Yes. Ish.

There's an undeniable massive bias towards a minority of Victorian clubs. Mine is not one of them. In fact, my own clubs cops it harder from the AFL than any "interstate" club does.

But the reality is the game started in Victoria. The VFA then VFL were the power competitions of the sport.

That doesn't mean the WAFL or SANFL were s**t, or their clubs any less proud or successful in producing gun footballers than Victorian VFA/VFL clubs.

The "interstate" clubs joined the VFL willingly. People can sook about the VFL being broke all they want, and they're right, but WA footy still CHOSE to screw over fiercely proud clubs like East Fremantle to join the Victorian league.

That's just how it is.

The "interstate" clubs have signed off on all the equalisation measures, all the competitive balance measures, all that stuff, that benefits smaller Victorian clubs. Big Victorian clubs signed off on supporting multiple non-Victorian expansion clubs too and they've cost far more and will keep costuing far more than anything smaller Victorian sides get.

As I said before, it is like us endlessly sooking because in the 1870s Collingwood was a densely populated slum and North Melbourne a lightly populated industrial area.

Nothing is going to change that reality and its impact today (Collinwgood have more supporters)

Nothing is going to change the fact that Victoria will ALWAYS be the political and economic centre of gravity for Australian Football.

People can whinge and sook all they want, but that's what it is.

If anything, WA and SA fans should be wanting the likes of North and the Dees to get bigger and counterbalance the Collingwood/Richmond/Essendon nexus. THAT is where the bias goes, not Victoria in general.

(And I never heard these squeals about bias when Dean Margetts gave his good mate - literally - Dean Cox free after free after free at Subi against Nrth a few years back. Oh no, some bias is GOOD is seems, home crowd advantage, confirmation of the crowd etc etc)

 

[RUNVS]

Quite right.

Hawthorn's 2014 winning side had more NSW players than the Sydney swans.

Even the Victorian State of Origin team somehow had non-Victorians in it, at least in the 90's.

 

[The Warlord]

and when was the last time a Victorian club won a premiership with no non-Victorian players or coaches?

We're not the ones acting like spoilt children and pretending it should be.

I love North's historical attachment to players outside Victoria. I love the fact that as a small Melbourne club we got the edge on our bigger rivals by bringing in guns from WA and SA.

I love the fact that despite being based in inner city Melbourne we've got a hugely strong culture with indigenous players, many of them Noongar men.

 

[PerthblueGold]

Simple answer really. W.C.E needed a small enough stadium so that it could continue to charge $75 to $100 a seat.

WCE didn`t build the Stadium..State Gov did

 

[The Warlord]

When it became the AFL in 1990, it was supposed to become a true national competition increasing the number of clubs from different states.

And that happened.

Since 1990 the league has introduced:

Two South Australian sides
One Western Australian side (to make two)
One Queensland side (to make two)
One NSW side (to make two)

It has also bailed out the original Sydey side from multiple goings under. It sent a Victorian side to Queensland to prop up the original failing Queensland side. It's bailed out one of the South Australian sides. It continues to pump huge sums into both Queensland sides and both NSW sides.

It has done exactly what you said it should.

 

[The Warlord]

Simple answer really. W.C.E needed a small enough stadium so that it could continue to charge $75 to $100 a seat.

Again, Western Australian football chooses an outcome that's maybe not in the best interests of all Western Australian footy fans.

How's that the fault of the evil Victorians with our secret cabal to rig footy?

 

[RUNVS]

Again, Western Australian football chooses an outcome that's maybe not in the best interests of all Western Australian footy fans.

How's that the fault of the evil Victorians with our secret cabal to rig footy?

So are you saying that if WA had a stadium that could fit 80,000 that the AFL would give them a Grand Final? Do you really think that?

 

[The Warlord]

WCE didn`t build the Stadium..State Gov did

Then why didn't the WA Govt build it MCG size?

 

[Port Adel Proud]

WCE didn`t build the Stadium..State Gov did

W.A. government acting as the undisclosed agent of the WCE's interests.

 

[Port Adel Proud]

Again, Western Australian football chooses an outcome that's maybe not in the best interests of all Western Australian footy fans.

How's that the fault of the evil Victorians with our secret cabal to rig footy?

The beg bad Victorian bogey

Again, Western Australian football chooses an outcome that's maybe not in the best interests of all Western Australian footy fans.

How's that the fault of the evil Victorians with our secret cabal to rig footy?

The big bad Victorian boogeyman made them do it.

 

[beema limapep]

Believe it or not the World did not start in Melbourne

Yeah, but if god had his time again, we would have definately have picked us as his chosen people.