If the VFL/AFL greatest team of all time, was selected today, who is in, and who is out of the team of the century

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STRONGandBALD said:
All I did was correct your inaccuracies and you call that garbage lol whatever

I suggested my team as per the thread, put Dusty in and you had a fit. I’m not doing anything, chuck me on ignore if you can’t handle it.
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I think he is a great player, in a similar career overall to Stevie Johnson. Very good comparison. It just gets headache worthy seeing how obsessively you and a small bunch wander around infecting every possible thread saying Martin is the greatest player the game has ever seen, to the point of deleting your old account and creating a new one to try and re identify yourself as a new poster.

You don’t see any abnoxious silly posts like geelong fans claiming Steve Johnson is the greatest ever player. We just call him a great of the game and keep it rational
 
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James Colorado said:
2013 Brownlow Medal - ineligible due to suspension. 25 votes (19 games). Ablett won with 28 (21 games).

2014 Brownlow Medal - ineligible due to suspension. 19 votes (18 games). Priddis won with 26 (22 games).

If he didn't have those moments of frustration which led to those suspensions, and in 2014 injury, he may have a very different reputation.
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Champion of the game. I think in terms of the Martin talk, Stevie J and Martin would be about level field in terms of careers. Stevie J would have a serious case to put forward as the best ever HF to play the game. Knew exactly what to do.
 

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Fadge said:
Fair question. They're probably the leading candidates ahead of Enright, but just don't think they're near the incumbents - Doull and Murray.
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I think surely enright and Scarlett enter the discussions??? I don’t know how they stack in comparison to say doull and silvagni.

I have seen debates before comparing SOS with Scarlett, so surely this is one to discuss?
 
geelong_crazy26 said:
I think surely enright and Scarlett enter the discussions??? I don’t know how they stack in comparison to say doull and silvagni.

I have seen debates before comparing SOS with Scarlett, so surely this is one to discuss?
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Yep, Scarlett would be in the convo to replace SOS, who would be one of the most vulnerable in the original team.
 
Part of the problem is there are not enough places. I mean when you are choosing between players like Daicos and Martin….well it really just comes down to personal preferences/biases.

The other part of the problem is players are so much better today. Watch the 1965 Grand final. The Eagles of today would comfortably beat either side. Players are taller, more powerful and more skill full today. John Nicholls barely gets a game today. Same with Jack Dyer. Murray was a bog standard back flanker who just played a long long time (for the age). The best team from 2000-2023 would beat this team by 20 goals plus.

I think the line is drawn correctly. After 1996 the game evolved rapidly and professionalism came to the fore, footy players went full time. Really shouldn’t be looking to update this team more select a post 96 team.
 
Fadge said:
Yep, Scarlett would be in the convo to replace SOS, who would be one of the most vulnerable in the original team.
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I’m with you on that one, Scarlett and Enright could both be in over SOS. Has any defender gotten more AAs than them, I don’t think so.
 
Ricmel said:
Part of the problem is there are not enough places. I mean when you are choosing between players like Daicos and Martin….well it really just comes down to personal preferences/biases.

The other part of the problem is players are so much better today. Watch the 1965 Grand final. The Eagles of today would comfortably beat either side. Players are taller, more powerful and more skill full today. John Nicholls barely gets a game today. Same with Jack Dyer. Murray was a bog standard back flanker who just played a long long time (for the age). The best team from 2000-2023 would beat this team by 20 goals plus.

I think the line is drawn correctly. After 1996 the game evolved rapidly and professionalism came to the fore, footy players went full time. Really shouldn’t be looking to update this team more select a post 96 team.
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Or... we can appreciate the history of the game and apply some logical thinking to assess the relative greatness of players in comparison to their peers of their respective eras to conclude who are deservedly rated amongst the greatest players of all time.

I mean, can we no longer suggest Bradman is the greatest cricketer of all time?
 
Fadge said:
Or... we can appreciate the history of the game and apply some logical thinking to assess the relative greatness of players in comparison to their peers of their respective eras to conclude who are deservedly rated amongst the greatest players of all time.

I mean, can we no longer suggest Bradman is the greatest cricketer of all time?
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Great post.
In any ‘best ever’ team - in any sport- players can only fairly be assessed on their performance relative to their peers in their own era.
If the argument is that current day players are automatically the best of all time, we might as well say that the All Australian team each year replaces its predecessor as the greatest ever team.
To suggest that Bruce Doull - to pick just one - would no longer be in the best team of all time shows no understanding of history or how great Doull was over 350 games.
Obviously there would be changes from the official totc 27 years ago to a best team ever in 2023, but nowhere near as many as some are suggesting.
 
Guardian Hawk said:
Interesting take on the 'non-negotiables', especially Daicos given he had played his whole career when it was last selected and he didn't make it. If I were to pick 3 players as 'non-negotiables', funnily enough I would pick 3 completely different players.

My 3 would be:

Wayne Carey - debated by many as to whether he is the greatest player of all time, he is the clear choice for CHF. Whilst FF has a number of genuine options, Carey really is head and shoulders clear of the alternatives available, including the incumbent Royce Hart. A dominant captain of a multi flag side who's gameplan was built entirely around him, he won 2 MVP's, 7 AA's and kicked roughly twice as many goals as the current CHF in the TOTC.

Leigh Matthews - the other most commonly chosen player as 'greatest ever'. He was the game's best rover, won 8 B&F's in a star studded, 4 flag side, had the MVP rightfully named after him but also won a Coleman and kicked 915 goals, far and away the most of any non key forward. Given this last part, he can be selected anywhere as not only was he (arguably) the game greatest rover but also the game's greatest ever small forward.

Gary Ablett Snr - A bit like Matthews, he was a freak, in the argument for greatest ever player and is selectable in multiple positions given he played wing, half forward and full forward and did it all to a ridiculous, never seen before level.

I like your rationale (and agree with plenty of it) for your 3 but I wouldn't describe them as 'non negotiable' or "wrong if you don't pick them" like the above 3.

With Daicos, for example, he was not selected the first time and I think Gary Ablett Snr could definately occupy his position in the side. There are 2 pockets and 2 half forward flanks where Daicos is selectable though. I think Gary Snr and Leigh Matthews automatically take 2 of those. Any of the great full forwards (Coventry, Hudson, Lockett, etc) could take another spot, leaving one HFF remaining for everyone else ever. Franklin would probably make it too tall but has bigger claims than Daicos IMO. Kevin Bartlett could be another - he kicked 229 more goals than Daicos, won 5 B&F's to 2, 1 Norm Smith to 0 and was a key man in 5 flags to 1. Dusty Martin and James Hird are other options whose resume surpasses that of Daicos and that's not counting all of the resting 'greatest of all time' mids that are selectable there, including the need to omit Hayden Bunton (3 straight Brownlows) who currently occupies the forward pocket.
Don't get me wrong, Daicos is in the conversation and was amazing, but the "all time" team is very hard to get into and not many positions are "non-negotiable". I mean, no one has advocated that Bill Hutchison should be in there at all but he was a rover/half forward like Daicos and he won back to back Brownlows, 7 B&F's, was the best player in a 4 flag side, captained the club for 7 years, was selected 8 times in the "team of the year" (equivalent of modern AA) and kicked 490 goals as a predominant rover in a low scoring era. In other words, the bar for this team is set extraordinarily high.

For Doull, I'd probably pick him myself but don't think he is non-negotiable either. Kevin Murray is the incumbent on the other flank and is in before Doull. Murray was a Brownlow medallist, state captain, 9 x B&F winner, etc, etc. Viable alternatives to Doull in my view includes Luke Hodge (4 flags each, but Hodge captained a threepeat, 2 Norm Smiths to 1, 3 B&F's to Doull's 4). Andrew McLeod is another viable option with a similar record to Hodge (2 Norm Smiths, 3 B&F's, etc.). Shame the other awards didn't exist in Doull's era. I also think it's an option to select one of the best mids of all time on a half back flank, particularly if they spent time there. For this, the choices are endless.

I think I'd also pick Matera but it's not clear cut, especially now that a "true wing" position hasn't 'fully' existed for many teams in the last 30 years, bar the odd exceptions (rather you have gun mids who are more 'outside', providing more choice for selection in the team of the century). To pick Matera, you also have to drop Greig and/or Bourke, overlook Flower (and Schimma) and bypass all the modern gun mids who spend plenty of time on the outside (I put Cousins there in one of my teams for example).

After all that, I said Id probably pick Doull and Matera myself (probably not Daicos), just don't agree with "the team is wrong" if they're not selected. I think that is reserved for very, very few, such as the 3 I suggested above.
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I mean; Matthews, Carey and Ablett are basically givens (plus I said I wouldn't go on about any Geelong players to avoid bias - apart from Bernie Smith because he needs the advocates).

Of course those three are in. And to be clear I agree with you: they are the three.

So yes, I've completely contradicted myself.

But, Ablett; hey, I'm a Geelong fan of a certain age, of course I think he's the best evah. It's too easy for me to nominate Geelong players.

Matthews and Carey speak for themselves. They are in %100 of Greatest Team of All Time selections of those that have any idea whatsoever.

After that? That's when it gets a lot more contentious.

Are Carlton fans really that downtrodden that they won't nominate Doull themselves? I just think this guy was the quintessential defender. I think he is genuinely the 1st defender chosen in this exercise.

Daicos and Matera are more assailable, I'll concede.

I missed Robbie Flower's peak but happily there is plenty of footage of this guy's brand of genius. Like Peter Matera, he just looked born to dazzle on the outskirts of a footy oval. Skill, innovation, heart; Flower had all that. But Matera was a winner, and when it comes to splitting the greats that counts whether Flower could help it or not.

Darren Millane up there with the best I saw in the position, too. Schimma, Keith Greig - hey I saw a lot of Dipper and he was a very, very good wingman.

Forward of centre I think I'd want the ball in the hands of Peter Daicos more than any other player I've seen.
 
Fadge said:
Or... we can appreciate the history of the game and apply some logical thinking to assess the relative greatness of players in comparison to their peers of their respective eras to conclude who are deservedly rated amongst the greatest players of all time.

I mean, can we no longer suggest Bradman is the greatest cricketer of all time?
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Yeah I hate the whole argument that Polly Farmer, or John Nicholls, don't deserve consideration as the best Rucks of all time because of their relative lack of height. The ability to dominate one's position in any given era should be given serious weight imo.

I think Simon Madden is probably the most potent ruckman I have seen with my own eyes, and I reckon I saw him past his peak.
 
Cursed Cat said:
Yeah I hate the whole argument that Polly Farmer, or John Nicholls, don't deserve consideration as the best Rucks of all time because of their relative lack of height. The ability to dominate one's position in any given era should be given serious weight imo.

I think Simon Madden is probably the most potent ruckman I have seen with my own eyes, and I reckon I saw him past his peak.
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I guess John Coleman and Gordon Coventry are out of the equation then due to height?? Same with Ted whitten
 

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geelong_crazy26 said:
I guess John Coleman and Gordon Coventry are out of the equation then due to height?? Same with Ted whitten
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Because of their height, they would not be played at FF today therefore their goal tally would dry up and thus not be considered as good as what they are now.
 
Cyclops said:
There were guys before WW 1 too, Essendobs Thurgood was champion of the Colony umpteen times, Collingwoods Dick Condon invented the stab pass and Dick Lee led the league goal kicking 7 mfing times. OK he not into the 20s.
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You can add Daniel Minogue to that list, my grandfather (first much younger cousin) rated him as the Barrassi of his time.

Famously played out the 1911 GF with a broken collarbone from the 1st qtr.
 
I would change the team in this way

Ablett jnr for Barassi
Franklin for Royce Hart
Judd for Greig
Carey for Jeasulenko
Voss for Williams
 
Steven Silvagni,Bernie Smith, John Nicholls , Greg Williams Dick Reynolds and Hayden Bunton out for Alex Rance, Gavin Wanganeen, Dustin Martin, Wayne Carey, Tony Lockett and Lance Franklin
 
In:
Paul Roos
Andrew McLeod
Patrick Dangerfield
Wayne Carey
Tony Lockett
Dustin Martin
Gary Ablett Jr.

Out:
John Nicholls
Bruce Doull
Francis Bourke
Royce Hart
John Coleman
Jack Dyer
Greg Williams


B:Bernie Smith (Geelong, West Adelaide)Stephen Silvagni (Carlton)Paul Roos (Fitzroy, Sydney)
HB:Andrew McLeod (Port Adelaide (SANFL), Adelaide)Ted Whitten (Footscray) CaptainKevin Murray (Fitzroy, East Perth)
C:Patrick Dangerfield (Adelaide, Geelong)Ian Stewart (Hobart, St Kilda, Richmond)Keith Greig (North Melbourne)
HF:Dustin Martin (Richmond)Wayne Carey (North Melbourne, Adelaide)Dick Reynolds (Essendon)
F:Leigh Matthews (Hawthorn)Tony Lockett (St Kilda, Sydney)Haydn Bunton Sr. (Fitzroy, Subiaco, Port Adelaide)
Foll:Graham Farmer (Geelong, East Perth, West Perth)Ron Barassi (Melbourne, Carlton)Bob Skilton (South Melbourne)
Int:Gary Ablett Sr. (Hawthorn, Geelong)Alex Jesaulenko (Carlton, St Kilda)Gary Ablett Jr. (Geelong, Gold Coast)
Coach:Norm Smith (Melbourne)
 
I can't get involved in this discussion as I have not seen most of the players being discussed play. I have no context for deciding if player A is better than player B.

You may as well ask me who was a better Astronaut out of Libby Lenton and Gough Whitlam.
 
The orginal was heavily politicized with clear chip trading and historical bias. 50s onwards dominates, where's Thurgood?

Dyer and Nichols were legendary leaders but no one in their era had them as the best player. Carltons own TotC had Southby at fullback.

Of course us Collingwood people were offended by the coaching choice. Smith was barely half the coach McHale was, numbers and reputation support this. That was politics. Just to melt a bit more, we won the most games, the most finals and once won 4 flags straight, but apparently never had great players. Also it wasn't the coach. Just lucky I guess.

In the same way Coleman was selected over players with longer careers, better numbers and more achievements like Lee, Coventry, Pratt, Hudson and more recently Lockett and Dunstall. Even at the time Lockett was a better player in my view, he's the most obviously change.

Hart vs Carey is a hot one, my bias is the Duck but Tigers (for once) have a case.

GAS has a case for wing HF and FF, bench is an insult.

Bunton, Reynolds, Farmer, Barrassi, Whitten and Greig seem obvious.

Skilton Matthews Bourke Bernie Smith Jezza Murray Doull Hart all greats, you could argue the toss but it's not a joke.

Coleman Dyer Nichols Silvagni Williams Bourke, yeah nah, try again.

Lockett (also Coventry and Dunstall) all clearly better than Coleman.

I'd love 3 Pies in. McHale fir Norm Smith (automatic on my view), Albert Collier and Jack Regan.

Others might be Chris Johnson (Brisbane) and Glen Jacovich,. Judging defenders is hard but those two stick out as gamechangers.
 
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Cyclops said:
The orginal was heavily politicized with clear chip trading and historical bias. 50s onwards dominates, where's Thurgood?

Dyer and Nichols were legendary leaders but no one in their era had them as the best player. Carltons own TotC had Southby at fullback.

Of course us Collingwood people were offended by the coaching choice. Smith was barely half the coach McHale was, numbers and reputation support this. That was politics. Just to melt a bit more, we won the most games, the most finals and once won 4 flags straight, but apparently never had great players. Also it wasn't the coach. Just lucky I guess.

In the same way Coleman was selected over players with longer careers, better numbers and more achievements like Lee, Coventry, Pratt, Hudson and more recently Lockett and Dunstall. Even at the time Lockett was a better player in my view, he's the most obviously change.

Hart vs Carey is a hot one, my bias is the Duck but Tigers (for once) have a case.

GAS has a case for wing HF and FF, bench is an insult.

Bunton, Reynolds, Farmer, Barrassi, Whitten and Greig seem obvious.

Skilton Matthews Bourke Bernie Smith Jezza Murray Doull Hart all greats, you could argue the toss but it's not a joke.

Coleman Dyer Nichols Silvagni Williams Bourke, yeah nah, try again.

Lockett (also Coventry and Dunstall) all clearly better than Coleman.

I'd love 3 Pies in. McHale fir Norm Smith (automatic on my view), Albert Collier and Jack Regan.

Others might be Chris Johnson (Brisbane) and Glen Jacovich,. Judging defenders is hard but those two stick out as gamechangers.
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Averages more goals per game than all but one player in the leagues history. And did it over a large sample size during an era players didnt kick centuries.

I largely agree with the sentiment but Coleman's numbers stack up and beat the vast majority. Longevity doesn't always mean better.
 
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boncer34 said:
Averages more goals per game than all but one player in the leagues history. And did it over a large sample size during an era players didnt kick centuries.

I largely agree with the sentiment but Coleman's numbers stack up and beat the vast majority. Longevity doesn't always mean better.
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I take your point, which is he's a coodabeen. Close yes, but not it.

Pratt a better single year. Hudson a better average. Dunstall and Lockett and Coventry for longer, Lockett in good and terrible sides. Pick your criteria, he doesn't top any of them. "But his knee" others will protest 9this is such a common argument, although to your credit you refuse to use it), what about my laziness? I coodabeen too.

Coleman was a freak, truly one of a kind, but not in any way the best of his kind: his star blazed for a short period in a dominant side in a pretty shabby era, the "play for fun" post WW2 league. We can debate professionalism in different eras, and I admit this is tricky, but its fair to point out he had superb support.

Coventry the first centurion and quality every year for 17 years. Lee the most frequent leading goalkicker, in an era when standouts were bashed repeatedly. Dunstall the most professional and greatest winner (really the second best ever, sadly for Coventry). Lockett the proven god of goalkicking, probably the best kick of a football to ever live-not trick shots, straight kicking from distance or any angle. Hudson the most accurate.

If we want to talk about coodabeens, Lockett was a fat lazy psycho, and still better than Coleman in a host of categories, in good sides and in rabbles.

It takes a lot of mental flexibility to promote Coleman past at least 3, probably 5 better FFs.
 
Why they decided to make the team in 1996 I have no idea.

Some of these changes could’ve already been there like having Lockett and Carey in.

Although I think Lockett should be the FF I think the AFL would still keep Coleman in due to the fact they named the leading goal kicker medal after him in the early 1980s I believe.
 
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