Review Round 17, 2023 vs Gold Coast

[Phar Ted]

Third Quarter
Dixon 9 ruck contests for 2 hit outs
Hayes 7 ruck contests for 3 hit outs

One playing his 200th game, the other playing his 8th game.

One is a banged up key forward forced into the ruck due to the main ruck not having a big enough engine for AFL
One is a ruck so it's his job to get hitouts.

 

[Schulzenfest]

He found out he was playing 2 minutes before the game started, started 15 mins into the first quarter and was subbed in the 3rd, and it was wet game, can’t really judge the bloke based on that game. Hayes had all week to know he was playing and it was one of the worst performances we have seen as a ruck.

It was by far the best performance anybody not named Scott Lycett has put in the ruck for us all year.

Also all the personal attacks you been doing lately is getting old. Saw you in the changes thread commenting stupid s**t. Do better

If you don't want to be called out for posting illogical bullshit then don't post illogical bullshit.

 

[Schulzenfest]

Lol what?

If finlayson was the best ruck why wouldn’t Hinkley, of all bloody coaches, continue to play him there?

As Eskimo said it’s a statistical outlier. Finlayson was getting rating points for stuff outside of the ruck.

Boak in the ruck during his peak would double all the rucks ratings … and it wouldn’t mean that he’s a great ruck.

Justin Westhoff was rated as an 'elite key forward' by Champion Data for like 5 years despite being neither elite nor a key forward.

 

[Visenfest]

Westhoff was a good to great utility going up and down the ground as a spare. Wouldn’t say he was ever elite in a particular position though. His strength was not having a fixed position to worry about.

 

[bomberclifford]

One is a banged up key forward forced into the ruck due to the main ruck not having a big enough engine for AFL
One is a ruck so it's his job to get hitouts.

1. That post was in response to the claim that Dixon going into ruck in the third quarter is what turned the game.

2. Dixon chops out in the ruck for Lycett too, who is also a ruck whose job it is to get hit outs.

 

[El Zorro]

Justin Westhoff was rated as an 'elite key forward' by Champion Data for like 5 years despite being neither elite nor a key forward.

How dare you

 

[longdonkey]

Touche, only looked a Finlayson stats

Hayes lost the hit outs with his direct opponent 18/44 last night with no impact otherwise, the fact Finlayson had 20 disposals and 1 goal 1 with 6 clearances as well as nearly the same amount of hitouts I would argue is still better.

Hayes will probably get dropped this week as well anyway

Think you'll probably find that Hayes brief would have been about nullifying Witt's influence at clearance playing a purely defensive game in a similar way to Lycett. If he can get taps to advantage then all the better. Between Finlayson and Dixon they took the other 30% between them mostly when Casboult went in the ruck and in our forward line.

I think you've already made up your mind about Hayes and you're searching for the negative to back up your argument. If you focus on what he can do rather than what he can't you'll see some positives. I don't like comparing any of them because all our rucks have a different game. For the time being Viscentini & Teakle are better served spending time in the gym building strength and playing SANFL.

 

[Tibbs]

Still an incorrect statement

It wasnt a statement by them, it was just statistics!

As Mark Twain wrote:

"Figures often beguile me, particularly when I have the arranging of them myself; in which case the remark would often apply with justice and force: 'There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.'"

PS... Mark Twain's use of the phrase related not so much to statistics in general, but to the use and manipulation of them to back up one's argument. A Bigfooty speciality!

 

[Macca19]

Jesus this is a weird take.

Dante showed he isn’t ready, even if you thought he has what it takes to be a good first ruck you would have to know he’s not remotely close to ready yet and needs more time.






Gets a mulligan for me not so much for how he came in, but for the fact he was picked way too early and isn’t remotely ready.

especially to play as a first ruck versus how most rucks start off as 2nd rucks / resting forward.


My concern wasn’t that stat line, it was the complete lack of mobility. That was the worst I’ve seen any non ‘fully cooked body is destroyed’ player move in memory. Like I know Hayes cops s**t for being a dinosaur (and he is) but that was bad.

Just have to hope that what we saw was the absolute worst of his mobility and we see massive improvement from that + the rest of his game is so good it doesn’t matter if he’s got the turning circle of a container ship on dry land.




No. Hayes has shown across tonnes of games, hell entire seasons he can lead the ruck at sanfl level. He won a bnf there. He showed last week he can.

He’s not parked in the forward line cause he’s not fit enough, he’s obviously parked there so they can play visentini and teakle in the ruck and develop them.

No doubt because they already decided Hayes is gone.

As I said, im happy to give Dante a mulligan for all that happened in that game, mobility, stats, everything. The guy was sitting in the stands when the game started. Put it down to a quirky experience and thats it.

Weve all seen him at SANFL level perform well and look fairly mobile, so theres no reason why he wont perform better with proper game prep next time

 

[port_adelaide_1870]

Think you'll probably find that Hayes brief would have been about nullifying Witt's influence at clearance playing a purely defensive game in a similar way to Lycett. If he can get taps to advantage then all the better. Between Finlayson and Dixon they took the other 30% between them mostly when Casboult went in the ruck and in our forward line.

I think you've already made up your mind about Hayes and you're searching for the negative to back up your argument. If you focus on what he can do rather than what he can't you'll see some positives. I don't like comparing any of them because all our rucks have a different game. For the time being Viscentini & Teakle are better served spending time in the gym building strength and playing SANFL.

If Teakle played last night and played the exact same way Hayes did, 95% of this board would be calling for him to be dropped. There is no doubt that this board has rose coloured glasses on for anything Sam Hayes

 

[port_adelaide_1870]

As I said, im happy to give Dante a mulligan for all that happened in that game, mobility, stats, everything. The guy was sitting in the stands when the game started. Put it down to a quirky experience and thats it.

Weve all seen him at SANFL level perform well and look fairly mobile, so theres no reason why he wont perform better with proper game prep next time

He was clearly best on ground yesterday. Getting around the ground a lot. Should get another go I think

 

[Schulzenfest]

If Teakle played last night and played the exact same way Hayes did, 95% of this board would be calling for him to be dropped. There is no doubt that this board has rose coloured glasses on for anything Sam Hayes

You do realise this is exactly what you're doing in reverse, right?

Hayes got closer to matching the likely AA ruckman than Teakle and Visentini did to matching Bailey Williams and Andrew Phillips and you're in here calling it the worst game you've seen all year. You deserve to be called out posting that bullshit.

 

[philreich]

This winning is getting monotonous

I can definitely handle 10 more straight wins - monotony is good.

 

[Phar Ted]

You do realise this is exactly what you're doing in reverse, right?

Hayes got closer to matching the likely AA ruckman than Teakle and Visentini did to matching Bailey Williams and Andrew Phillips and you're in here calling it the worst game you've seen all year. You deserve to be called out posting that bullshit.

Your continuing to use Visentini to strengthen your argument is disingenuous, we all know that the lad was thrown into the game at the last moment without any real expectation of playing.

 

[True__Believer]

Justin Westhoff was rated as an 'elite key forward' by Champion Data for like 5 years despite being neither elite nor a key forward.

Hoff could play every single position on the ground. How many players have you seen that could do that in the past 20 years? Pavlich only one off the top of my head

 

[afl2004]

If Teakle played last night and played the exact same way Hayes did, 95% of this board would be calling for him to be dropped. There is no doubt that this board has rose coloured glasses on for anything Sam Hayes

What universe would teakle ever play a game that competent

 

[Peninsula Boy]

The boys played a good enough game where they toyed with their lunch for just under a half, put the gas down in the third and then relaxed in the last. Your classic textbook game against inferior opposition this year. We kinda hope our overall skills will win the game but when it doesn't, we just play harder until the opposition yields.

Once we bumped up the intensity and got our matchups right, we really did bury them quickly and all of their will was lost to win the game.

It was quite an anticipated game with Hayes in the ruck and I thought he played well enough in the ruck itself, especially in the centre, but was a non-factor around the ground unless the ball came close to him. 6 tackles though. A couple of clearances. A very good effort against one of the best rucks in the league. He is clearly 2nd behind Lycett. Also great to hear Visentini was BOG this weekend for the Magpies. And as Macca has said, Visentini definitely gets a mulligan for last week. However, I will say that Hayes didn't bring the sexy back.

We have a little bit of a dearth of midfield superiority when the Hornet and/or Butters doesn't play so well. One of them is a bit of a problem but both is hard to match. Butters will always work his way into the contest but the Hornet has been down for a while now.

We seem to be hitting injuries a bit too. Hopefully it is just a thing. They generally seem quite innocuous.

I thought the whistle was a bit nazi for the first half but when it was put away, we danced on them.

Rozee - I thought best of ground and seems to be good for 28 and 2. A goal finishing midfield and is so polished and works so hard. A joy to watch.
Butters - a bit under but still doing his thing. When he showboats, it is not so good. When he does the things that come naturally, he is gold.
Horne-Francis - definitely a bit down in the midfield. 11 possies in the midfield. Would like to see him mix it up a bit more outside.
Drew - his bloodnut best when destroying Rowell who become a non-factor when we got our run on. He was like red on a stop sign. His kicking into F50 is bordering on elite.
Wines - I thought it was his best game of the year. In and under, dishing to others, working hard, doing what needed to be done, linking for others. High possessions and clearances. Building nicely. What I like is that he played within himself but helped his teammates shine.
Boak - a pretty good game. He won't get close to 30 disposals because he doesn't play in the centre but 20 outside the centre is very good. He also seemed to do some cleanup work down back which was really good to see.
Narkle - low possessions but a good game. Good defensively. Gives us a bit of creativity and skill in that slot. Think he will get better.
Hayes - good in the centre bounces, good in the stoppages when he got to them. Not the best around the ground. When the ball was in his vicinity, he did well though. You can see why he has not been given a chance. The coaching staff must have asked him to work on this endurance and he hasn't improved there. I think that is the reluctance. Witts had 44 hitouts but they weren't super advantageous. 10 possessions is decent. 6 tackles is a bit of a shock. Decent enough game.

Before we get into the defence, I would like to share some stats of the game.

Intercept possessions - Aliir 8, Burton 8, Farrell 8, Houston 7, Boak 7, Bergman 7, Jones 6. What I am trying to say here is that the whole backline intercepts, not just Aliir. They work really well together and did a great job. Also for an extra stat, Hayes got 5 intercepts.

I think if the coaching staff take a good look at this game, they won't bring in Jonas but go with Aliir and Bergman as our two talls against Carlton. We will see.

Aliir - superb down back. Casboult did kick 4. 2 were late. 1 was a rubbish free kick. Built a wall as usual. Absolute leader down there.
Farrell - another fantastic game down back. He's got a bit of speed when he needs it as well. Love watching him play. The most effortless sweet boot I've ever seen. Kept Hegawo 'can I buy a consonant' Oea quiet.
Houston - doing his thing. Good game. Puts fear into the opposition now when he marks on 50.
Jones - an excellent game coming back from injury. Didn't run off as much. Kept Lukosius quiet when on him. By the way, is it just me or does Lukosus go to the same gym as Fantasia.
Williams - a good game as usual. Still a bit bomb scary when the ball is loose.
Burton - good offensive game and his direct opponent didn't burn him.
Bergman - another great game down back, talls, smalls, whatever. He must have a lot of high twitch muscle fibres because he just makes everything difficult for the opposition. A couple of horror kicks in the first quarter. Tidy that up, Iceberg.
McKenzie - subbed off early.

Finlayson - creative and kicking goals. If he was a bit more accurate, he would've been best on ground. He kicked 3.4.
Byrne-Jones - I thought it was his best and creative game for the year. He started our run in the third. Seemed to link up brilliantly with the midfield but also work hard back to goal.
Marshall - both Marshall and Ballard had impactful games. He stuck with it and kicked 2 goals.
Dixon - heart of a giant when playing. Kicked a goal. Played well in the ruck on one leg.
Rioli - a good game back. Did enough. Can do some ultra creative things and finish with the ball. We will need him for finals.
Powell-Pepper - not his best game but always bobs up. You can't keep a good man down.
McEntee - solid game. He is a coaches favourite but if a more skilful player comes in, he might not have his position inked in the forward line.

We have one more 'easy' game and then we get Collingwood at home, the Adelaide Showdown and Geelong away.

So at the moment, I am a bit worried about rucks, fair enough, and 3rd banana in the midfield.

Good ground out win.

 

[Adz2332]

We won it in third Qtr when Charlie went into the ruck

Lol carn

 

[Nelso]

If Teakle played last night and played the exact same way Hayes did, 95% of this board would be calling for him to be dropped. There is no doubt that this board has rose coloured glasses on for anything Sam Hayes

You are forgetting something.

Teakle would not have got one single tap against Witts.

Remember Teakle made Bailey Williams look like the next Polly Farmer.

 

[longdonkey]

He was clearly best on ground yesterday. Getting around the ground a lot. Should get another go I think

I'm glad he was BOG in the SANFL and I hope he continues with his good form and in a year or 2 or 3 he becomes our number 1 ruck. Giving him games before he's ready is not the best thing for his development in the long term and in my opinion like Teakle got his opportunity because of Stinkley continuing to punish Hayes for whatever reason he has.

 

[Peninsula Boy]

I thought our 3rd quarter blitz was based on the whole team playing well and getting our matchups better rather than getting first use of the ball out of the centre.

 

[philreich]

Gee we've had some monster third quarters this year, particularly at home. When we get hot, we get hot.

Junior Rioli adds so much to this team. So many clever little knock ons that don't go on the stats sheet but create shots at goal. And when he gets the chance to finish himself, he rarely misses.

This is a very unselfish team. Whenever a team mate is in a better position, you'll regularly see a deft tap to him. It's great to watch, and tough to stop.

 

[sobrave]

If Teakle played last night and played the exact same way Hayes did, 95% of this board would be calling for him to be dropped. There is no doubt that this board has rose coloured glasses on for anything Sam Hayes

you've got the complete opposite. hayes can't do a single thing right and you're looking to potshot him at every chance

 

[port_adelaide_1870]

you've got the complete opposite. hayes can't do a single thing right and you're looking to potshot him at every chance

nah I am happy to give players credit, early on I openly admitted I was wrong with Williams. I hope I am wrong about Hayes but after yesterday I saw literally nothing that made me think he will be a good AFL player.

 

[Macca19]

You are forgetting something.

Teakle would not have got one single tap against Witts.

Remember Teakle made Bailey Williams look like the next Polly Farmer.

Williams is much better than everyone here has given him credit for. He's had a pretty good season in the worst team in the history of the game.