Autopsy Round 9, 2023 : Hawks burnt by Demons

[Strapping Young Lad]

 

[hawk for 37]

Not just a reflection on this game, but can someone explain the theory behind our defensive set up when the opponent kicks in after a point?
Teams repeatedly feel no pressure until they run the ball out to the 50m line. Then find open players easily further up the ground. We start to contest when the ball is kicked into our d50. Happening all the time!

Plus we reluctantly want to ‘stand’ and push up on the kicker. We prefer to sag back to ‘outside 5’ but instead Hawks insist on ‘outside’ 15!

Am I the only one who sees this?

 

[seysearles]

Ramsden is 2 years older than Watts when he debuted. We didn’t pick Ramsden (again) because when he played his first AFL game, he did a couple of nice things but was probably a fair bit off the mark. It’s the right thing to keep him at VFL level for a while to continue to learn his craft.

Kozi is fully mature and has played 38 games. It made sense to me to plug him in as a late replacement, even though he was probably going to struggle too.

Kozi is very much a backup. We need to be searching for another candidate to fill the permanent KPF role. Not sure is Ramsden or Jeka can be that guy right now but I know for sure that Kozi can’t .

 

[HedgeFund]

We outwork the opposition on a weekly basis. Just check the GPS numbers.

The comments that we are not fit enough are unfounded.

That would suggest there’s a lot of unnecessary running going by the guys wearing brown and gold jumpers.

Which way do you think we are running somewhat unnecessarily? I’m thinking forwards - ie. when we can’t actually impact the contest and should be setting up behind the ball to defend.

If we did a little bit more thinking about whether we are needed or not where the ball is located, rather than simply hunting, we might be able to defend better between the arcs.

 

[burner1]

Sitting up in the nosebleeds at the game, one thing that really stuck out was the difference in structure when either team had the ball behind half way.

Melbourne had options and dynamic running everywhere. We had none of that, setting up very flat almost soccer like. Our mids would do some great grunt work, get the ball, get free and look up to absolutely nothing.

It reminded me of the wallabies under Cheika and McKenzie - we had tge ability to break the line, but then there would be no support pod following to secure the ruck or take a pass/offload. It’s the same here, we win the ball but then there is no support further up, leaving whoever has it with a series of poor options.

Your comment about our flat structure is an interesting one. We were doing something similar last year to run in waves but this year it’s not working. We also seem to throw more numbers at the stoppages (which distorts the stats). But whatever we are doing on transition isn’t working. We often don’t seem to have numbers in the right spots and appear to get beaten in the ground ball 50/50s on transition. And when running really counts (like tracking a man on burst) we drop off.

 

[Jim Prideaux]

Your comment about our flat structure is an interesting one. We were doing something similar last year to run in waves but this year it’s not working. We also seem to throw more numbers at the stoppages (which distorts the stats). But whatever we are doing on transition isn’t working. We often don’t seem to have numbers in the right spots and appear to get beaten in the ground ball 50/50s on transition. And when running really counts (like tracking a man on burst) we drop off.

I think playing flat can work as a strategy, but you need to have tgat immediate controlled spread the second you win the ball. For a young team it’s an incredibly difficult tactic to employ.

 

[Noel Gallagher]

Your post is a great example of why people push back on so many of the negative posts that are made here.

Have an opinion, even be critical of a player but to say Morrison “has no idea where to go or what to do” is just pure rubbish.

Agree. Not a huge fan but he does have above average footy IQ and has worked hard on his contested game that doesn’t come naturally to him. Just doesn’t have any serious tricks or stand out athletic attributes unfortunately

 

[TylerDurden]

Reeves is a bigger loss than most think. Consider that Gawn alone had 6 clearances, the freak that he is.

 

[Franko Armani]

Could someone explain to me what Moore’s role/position is? Never seen anything like it.

 

[Mojo]

Could someone explain to me what Moore’s role/position is? Never seen anything like it.

He's in one of the hardest positions on the ground, especially at Hawthorn - HFF. We're bereft of organisation, talent, etc, forward of centre.. Moore's a product of our disfunction.

That's the first layer. There may be additional layers on top of that.

 

[TylerDurden]

 

[KermitJagger]

Insane. Take away this and Nic Naitanui wouldn't be able to play as an AFL ruck. Only difference between him and Meek here is that Naitanui was more likely to knee you in the head than the leg.

 

[A Diakos]

Morrison compared to last week had a bad game. Last week he was in our top 5 players. The crimmins medal will back me up i reckon

he was no good against eagles either .....despite what af points say ....perfect example was the out on the full under no pressure .....he had an out on the full shot v dogs in the 1st qtr too under no pressure and they went up the other end and scored a goal

poor skills, no physical presence and costly turnovers

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Well, if that’s the case, then it’s even more alarming.

I don’t check GPS numbers, but now I’m very interested as to in what regard we outwork our opposition? Total KMs run? It’s certainly not in team defence or defensive running, when it’s time to.

Watching countless blokes in Melbourne jumpers spread from a contest and receive the ball in acres of space for a couple of hours live is enough for me to know we aren’t working hard enough, when we need to.

Can you give me some context around our GPS numbers?

Top 5 players for average speed. They just keep working.

 

[naysayer]

Morrison talk: he's been same-old same-old. He gives effort, but I think his tendency to drift out of games is starting to hurt us. I expected more consistency from him. Great skills and can do some tough stuff as well. 0 tackles yesterday though - under Sammy I've noticed that a low tackle count is the surest way onto chopping block

 

[Dewyyyyy]

Top 5 players for average speed. They just keep working.

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Love the work SYL but

This is the true look of our running at this point:

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Love the work SYL but

This is the true look of our running at this point:
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You’ve missed the point.

We are fit.

 

[TheFourPillars]

he was no good against eagles either .....despite what af points say ....perfect example was the out on the full under no pressure .....he had an out on the full shot v dogs in the 1st qtr too under no pressure and they went up the other end and scored a goal

poor skills, no physical presence and costly turnovers

I could point several things that other players did that equally cost goals but the spotlight only shines on one player because in ure bias u r looking for it and excuse the errors of everyone else. Any ways its tiresome continually talking about this because nothing will change so i will stop here suffice to say objectively he had a bad game this week.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

You’ve missed the point.

We are fit.

Yep we are fit. We are also quick.

But it’s a lot easier to look slow chasing ass, it’s alot easier to look like you’re not working when you’re out of position, with a lack of structure and chasing ass.

And I agree with you, but when you say we are working, it’s the thing I posted which concerns me, alot of our games we are working more in offense than defense and it should be the other way around.

I’ve been taught you are better off resting on offense than defense, and it also puts you in a better position more often.

 

[H00t]

Yep we are fit. We are also quick.

But it’s a lot easier to look slow chasing ass, it’s alot easier to look like you’re not working when you’re out of position, with a lack of structure and chasing ass.

And I agree with you, but when you say we are working, it’s the thing I posted which concerns me, alot of our games we are working more in offense than defense and it should be the other way around.

I’ve been taught you are better off resting on offense than defense, and it also puts you in a better position more often.

We are fit. However we definitely aren’t quick. If there’s one thing that’s been obvious this year it’s that. We have a couple of quick players but as a whole we are definitely a slow team.

We generally run quicker on defence than our opposition does on offence. So it’s not like we aren’t doing defensive running. But this is where a lack of speed hurts. As we can’t close down gaps to pressure the opposition.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

We are fit. However we definitely aren’t quick. If there’s one thing that’s been obvious this year it’s that. We have a couple of quick players but as a whole we are definitely a slow team.

We generally run quicker on defence than our opposition does on offence. So it’s not like we aren’t doing defensive running. But this is where a lack of speed hurts. As we can’t close down gaps to pressure the opposition.

No.
Average speed working in defense top 5 for the year:
Dees (0 players)
Freo (0)
Dogs (1)
Crows (1)
GWS (0)
Cats (0)
North (5) - only win and we had 5/5 players in average speed working in defense
Syd (0)
Dons (0)

It isn’t a coincidence.

We work harder every week in offense and often have 3-5 players in the top 5. But we don’t work hard enough on average in defense with rarely anyone in the top 5.

And we don’t have a lack in leg speed, I can name more that lack leg speed because it is easier to name those who lack it than those who have it since there’s less.


Players that aren’t rucks/KPP
Morrison, Hardwick, Breust, Wingard

There’s a few who aren’t either
Worpel, Moore who imo have different athletic strengths, Worpel has strength and is quite explosive at getting the ball from inside to out, you can maybe put Newcombe here but I wouldn’t as he’s generally quicker over general play than Worpel. Moore isn’t slow but he’s not quick but he’s a very good endurance runner.

Worpel/Newcombe however are explosive, especially the latter so general quickness or leg speed is hard to gauge.

Overall I think our team has a very good mix of pace, explosiveness and endurance runners. But there’s a clear correlation with working hard defensively and winning. From what I’ve been taught to the stats I showed.

We are fit and quick but aren’t working hard enough defensively, I hope this is brought up, and it’s also about how we run, where and when. Pointless running exists.

Running into others space is also something that can and does happen, you’re better off running out and then in.

It’s a lot of different things but we don’t lack leg speed imho.

But it’s a lot easier to look slow chasing ass, it’s alot easier to look like you’re not working when you’re out of position, with a lack of structure

 

[Sturty]

First game I've attended in a while, 3rd quarter was pretty good but Melbourne just seemed 1-2 steps ahead and when they pulled the trigger they were gone. Lot of clumsy errors with ball in hand and we also do not look as fit as the top sides.

 

[CobberRodgers]

Top 5 players for average speed. They just keep working.

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Thanks for that.

As I said, it’s actually pretty alarming. Our running patterns and times we chose to run are a major issue then if it’s not our fitness.

 

[Charchi]

So Gawn is allowed to jump early, crash into his opponent with his knee, land, and take the ball from the ball up whilst having both feet planted and his opponent out of the contest by Gawn jumping early? This game is turning to sh!te with these BS rule interpretations.

 

[Rowie6]

He's in one of the hardest positions on the ground, especially at Hawthorn - HFF. We're bereft of organisation, talent, etc, forward of centre.. Moore's a product of our disfunction.

That's the first layer. There may be additional layers on top of that.

He is not quick enough!
The game has got faster in my opinion!
Every club wants quick transition and Moore and Morrison have the work ethic but they don’t have the gears and getting worked over.
Chad and Bruest are in the same boat aswell.


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[The Jet From Poowong]

Thanks for that.

As I said, it’s actually pretty alarming. Our running patterns and times we chose to run are a major issue then if it’s not our fitness.

It is not a fitness issue. Where players run to and how they expend their energy might be questionable, but they are super fit.