Review West Coast vs Port Adelaide - Trial Match 1 @ Lathlain

[Enviable Tradition]

It's something with which to convince the board that the team is close to breaking through. If we had anyone with a bit of football knowledge on there, it wouldn't work. But here we are.

If anything, we should be seeing this year as the ultimate test of Hinkleyball. On the weekend, we had our two first-choice small forwards available. We had more inside 50s. And yet, and yet, we were still impotent. Perhaps if we just try one more time, that time, for sure, it will work.

Someone needs to explain to Koch that when you kick a goal the ball goes back to the middle.

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[MrMeaner]

Someone needs to explain to Koch that when you kick a goal the ball goes back to the middle.

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That reduces the 'time of ball in forward line' KPI, doesn't it? I don't think that would be acceptable.

 

[Tibbs]

I was surprised by some of Bassett's views of the game, especially the team all ground defense.

One big concern I had out of the game was that it seemed like the players were instructed to default to running back 5m rather than stand the mark. Plenty of times there was no advantage to doing so and it 1. Opened up space for the player with the ball to better create an option/get decent ground before kicking and 2. moved our player into some nowhere spot where they had just voluntarily taken themselves out of the play.

Yeah, I noticed that too ... Seems to be a coaching directive necause they all tried to do it,

 

[1954]

I was surprised by some of Bassett's views of the game, especially the team all ground defense.

One big concern I had out of the game was that it seemed like the players were instructed to default to running back 5m rather than stand the mark. Plenty of times there was no advantage to doing so and it 1. Opened up space for the player with the ball to better create an option/get decent ground before kicking and 2. moved our player into some nowhere spot where they had just voluntarily taken themselves out of the play.

I noticed that too, I can recall one occasion where a toast player was given 10-15 metres of space both in front and to his left side after taking a mark on the wing, and his Port opponent just abandoned where would usually stand and instead ran off in the general direction of their goal.

I was expecting another Port player to come in and man the mark, but that didn't happen either, and if it's a coaching ploy to be taken into the real stuff I can't see it being successful.

 

[Launchpad McQuack]

I was surprised by some of Bassett's views of the game, especially the team all ground defense.

One big concern I had out of the game was that it seemed like the players were instructed to default to running back 5m rather than stand the mark. Plenty of times there was no advantage to doing so and it 1. Opened up space for the player with the ball to better create an option/get decent ground before kicking and 2. moved our player into some nowhere spot where they had just voluntarily taken themselves out of the play.

We've played this way since the stand rule was introduced. We must train this way as the number of times our players don't come back off their mark and their disposal is affected or outright smothered is infuriating.

 

[tribey]

Why does this club rate time in forward half, and ineffective inside 50 entries so highly?

It means absolutely nothing if it doesn't result in goals and a winning score.

 

[EskimoPAFC]

 

[Janus]

Since they started recording inside 50s in 2007:

2007 - Geelong 57.6 (1st) defeated Port Adelaide 51.2 (9th)
2008 - Hawthorn 51.9 (4th) defeated Geelong 57.8 (1st); Port 47.4
2009 - Geelong 53.2 (2nd) defeated St Kilda 51.9 (5th); Port 47.2
2010 - Collingwood 56.9 (1st) defeated St Kilda 48.1 (12th); Port 47.1
2011 - Geelong 59.7 (2nd) defeated Collingwood 60.6 (1st); Port 43.0
2012 - Sydney 54.4 (6th) defeated Hawthorn 59.6 (1st); Port 45.9 (I think everyone can agree that the Hawks were the better side)
2013 - Hawthorn 55.7 (2nd) defeated Fremantle 47.7 (15th); Port 51.0
2014 - Hawthorn 55.3 (3rd) defeated Sydney 56.2 (2nd); Port 56.2
2015 - Hawthorn 56.1 (1st) defeated West Coast 53.9 (5th); Port 52.6
2016 - Western Bulldogs 54.7 (7th) defeated Sydney 56.2 (4th); Port 54.9
2017 - Richmond 55.8 (3rd) defeated Adelaide 57.5 (2nd); Port 59.3
2018 - West Coast 53.4 (7th) defeated Collingwood 54.7 (3rd); Port 53.4
2019 - Richmond 58.1 (3rd) defeated GWS 51.5 (11th); Port 58.1
2020 - Richmond 47.0 (1st) defeated Geelong 43.1 (5th); Port 46.3
2021 - Melbourne 56.2 (2nd) defeated Western Bulldogs 54.7 (3rd); Port 53.7
2022 - Geelong 57.7 (1st) defeated Sydney 54.3 (9th); Port 52.9

Maybe we focus on inside 50 count because the grand final has literally featured a team in the top four of the inside 50 count since it first started being recorded.

 

[afl2004]

Since they started recording inside 50s in 2007:

2007 - Geelong 57.6 (1st) defeated Port Adelaide 51.2 (9th)
2008 - Hawthorn 51.9 (4th) defeated Geelong 57.8 (1st); Port 47.4
2009 - Geelong 53.2 (2nd) defeated St Kilda 51.9 (5th); Port 47.2
2010 - Collingwood 56.9 (1st) defeated St Kilda 48.1 (12th); Port 47.1
2011 - Geelong 59.7 (2nd) defeated Collingwood 60.6 (1st); Port 43.0
2012 - Sydney 54.4 (6th) defeated Hawthorn 59.6 (1st); Port 45.9 (I think everyone can agree that the Hawks were the better side)
2013 - Hawthorn 55.7 (2nd) defeated Fremantle 47.7 (15th); Port 51.0
2014 - Hawthorn 55.3 (3rd) defeated Sydney 56.2 (2nd); Port 56.2
2015 - Hawthorn 56.1 (1st) defeated West Coast 53.9 (5th); Port 52.6
2016 - Western Bulldogs 54.7 (7th) defeated Sydney 56.2 (4th); Port 54.9
2017 - Richmond 55.8 (3rd) defeated Adelaide 57.5 (2nd); Port 59.3
2018 - West Coast 53.4 (7th) defeated Collingwood 54.7 (3rd); Port 53.4
2019 - Richmond 58.1 (3rd) defeated GWS 51.5 (11th); Port 58.1
2020 - Richmond 47.0 (1st) defeated Geelong 43.1 (5th); Port 46.3
2021 - Melbourne 56.2 (2nd) defeated Western Bulldogs 54.7 (3rd); Port 53.7
2022 - Geelong 57.7 (1st) defeated Sydney 54.3 (9th); Port 52.9

Maybe we focus on inside 50 count because the grand final has literally featured a team in the top four of the inside 50 count since it first started being recorded.

What about marks inside 50 and most importantly scores per inside 50

 

[afl2004]

Since they started recording inside 50s in 2007:

2007 - Geelong 57.6 (1st) defeated Port Adelaide 51.2 (9th)
2008 - Hawthorn 51.9 (4th) defeated Geelong 57.8 (1st); Port 47.4
2009 - Geelong 53.2 (2nd) defeated St Kilda 51.9 (5th); Port 47.2
2010 - Collingwood 56.9 (1st) defeated St Kilda 48.1 (12th); Port 47.1
2011 - Geelong 59.7 (2nd) defeated Collingwood 60.6 (1st); Port 43.0
2012 - Sydney 54.4 (6th) defeated Hawthorn 59.6 (1st); Port 45.9 (I think everyone can agree that the Hawks were the better side)
2013 - Hawthorn 55.7 (2nd) defeated Fremantle 47.7 (15th); Port 51.0
2014 - Hawthorn 55.3 (3rd) defeated Sydney 56.2 (2nd); Port 56.2
2015 - Hawthorn 56.1 (1st) defeated West Coast 53.9 (5th); Port 52.6
2016 - Western Bulldogs 54.7 (7th) defeated Sydney 56.2 (4th); Port 54.9
2017 - Richmond 55.8 (3rd) defeated Adelaide 57.5 (2nd); Port 59.3
2018 - West Coast 53.4 (7th) defeated Collingwood 54.7 (3rd); Port 53.4
2019 - Richmond 58.1 (3rd) defeated GWS 51.5 (11th); Port 58.1
2020 - Richmond 47.0 (1st) defeated Geelong 43.1 (5th); Port 46.3
2021 - Melbourne 56.2 (2nd) defeated Western Bulldogs 54.7 (3rd); Port 53.7
2022 - Geelong 57.7 (1st) defeated Sydney 54.3 (9th); Port 52.9

Maybe we focus on inside 50 count because the grand final has literally featured a team in the top four of the inside 50 count since it first started being recorded.

Lol no s**t the teams that win the flags have the best inside 50 count impossible not too

 

[shewho]

That inside 50 stat has shown massive improvement in the Hinkley era, most likely due to the rise of Ollie Wines. We have been a good centre clearance team since Ollie. The more you win the contest in the midfield the more you get it inside 50- thanks Ollie.

But we haven’t converted. Our entries inside 50 have been poor. Boak has always been poor at this part of his game and up until 12-24 months ago Ollie was poor too. Poor entries mean poor conversion- thanks Ollie.

The good news is that Ollie has improved this part of his game immensely. Butters, JHF and Rozee in the midfield should help- they are all beautiful kicks- but there seems to be a real disconnect between our beautiful kickers and their delivery inside 50: Amon, Farrell, McKenzie, Butters, Rozee and JHF should regularly be hitting targets inside 50 but for whatever reason don’t - at least not with the regularity you’d expect. Finlayson seems better at this.

JHF’s sample is very very small but he missed targets a lot in the Internal Trial and v WC- even simple ones (eg- SPP on his own in the first quarter). He nailed one down the other end later in the game though (to McEntee). He is so balanced that I suspect this will be ironed out shortly- he’s probably just a little tentative with his kicks at the moment. When he sorts this, watch out.

Rioli and Fantasia are great at finding space inside 50. With Dixon always taking 2 defenders and Marshall growing in stature, there should be multiple targets for the midfield this year. We will be a good clearance team in 2023. If we can start improving our delivery inside 50, we will be better than 2020 and 2021.

 

[ClintEastwood]

The good news is that Ollie has improved this part of his game immensely. Butters, JHF and Rozee in the midfield should help- they are all beautiful kicks- but there seems to be a real disconnect between our beautiful kickers and their delivery inside 50: Amon, Farrell, McKenzie, Butters, Rozee and JHF should regularly be hitting targets inside 50 but for whatever reason don’t - at least not with the regularity you’d expect. Finlayson seems better at this.

Why are you talking like Amon is still a Port player?

 

[Doctor Feel]

A thankless task. I wonder if he could have said no. I'd have said "Periods of dominance made pointless by inefficiency. That will be all".

I mean, he could have. But no one at the club likes to hear truths, and absolutely won't speak them.

 

[Doctor Feel]

lol almost all of our I50's are off one step by some shitty midfielder who won the HaRd BaLl GeT while their defenders play in front and just sweep it out.

 

[shewho]

Why are you talking like Amon is still a Port player?

Because he was a classic example of my point. Great kick unless it required going over the F50 line.

I’d love to see the stats for kicks inside 50 and how many ended up in a mark by a forward.

 

[EskimoPAFC]

Since they started recording inside 50s in 2007:

2007 - Geelong 57.6 (1st) defeated Port Adelaide 51.2 (9th)
2008 - Hawthorn 51.9 (4th) defeated Geelong 57.8 (1st); Port 47.4
2009 - Geelong 53.2 (2nd) defeated St Kilda 51.9 (5th); Port 47.2
2010 - Collingwood 56.9 (1st) defeated St Kilda 48.1 (12th); Port 47.1
2011 - Geelong 59.7 (2nd) defeated Collingwood 60.6 (1st); Port 43.0
2012 - Sydney 54.4 (6th) defeated Hawthorn 59.6 (1st); Port 45.9 (I think everyone can agree that the Hawks were the better side)
2013 - Hawthorn 55.7 (2nd) defeated Fremantle 47.7 (15th); Port 51.0
2014 - Hawthorn 55.3 (3rd) defeated Sydney 56.2 (2nd); Port 56.2
2015 - Hawthorn 56.1 (1st) defeated West Coast 53.9 (5th); Port 52.6
2016 - Western Bulldogs 54.7 (7th) defeated Sydney 56.2 (4th); Port 54.9
2017 - Richmond 55.8 (3rd) defeated Adelaide 57.5 (2nd); Port 59.3
2018 - West Coast 53.4 (7th) defeated Collingwood 54.7 (3rd); Port 53.4
2019 - Richmond 58.1 (3rd) defeated GWS 51.5 (11th); Port 58.1
2020 - Richmond 47.0 (1st) defeated Geelong 43.1 (5th); Port 46.3
2021 - Melbourne 56.2 (2nd) defeated Western Bulldogs 54.7 (3rd); Port 53.7
2022 - Geelong 57.7 (1st) defeated Sydney 54.3 (9th); Port 52.9

Maybe we focus on inside 50 count because the grand final has literally featured a team in the top four of the inside 50 count since it first started being recorded.

And that there is the exact point.

These teams focused on a winning football strategy. As part of that strategy, it resulted in them having more inside 50s.

We have seen that correlation in the data, and think that its the inside 50s that matter, and focus on getting that, without having the broader understanding of how to use those inside 50s effectively.

 

[Janus]

What about marks inside 50 and most importantly scores per inside 50

Marks inside 50

2010 - Collingwood 14.9 (2nd) defeated St. Kilda 12.3 (7th); Port 10.4 (Schulz 16 games)
2011 - Geelong 15.0 (1st) defeated Collingwood 13.4 (4th); Port 10.5 (Schulz 16 games)
2012 - Sydney 10.8 (12th) defeated Hawthorn 13.3 (4th); Port 8.9 (Schulz 15 games)
2013 - Hawthorn 15.1 (1st) defeated Fremantle 11.6 (12th); Port 12.9 (Schulz 24 games)
2014 - Hawthorn 12.8 (3rd) defeated Sydney 12.1 (6th); Port 13.8 (Schulz 25 games)
2015 - Hawthorn 13.8 (1st) defeated West Coast 13.5 (3rd); Port 11.7 (Schulz 20 games)
2016 - Western Bulldogs 11.3 (14th) defeated Sydney 11.7 (11th); Port 10.3 (Schulz 7 games, Dixon 18 games)
2017 - Richmond 14.0 (2nd) defeated Adelaide 14.6 (1st); Port 13.4 (Dixon 23 games - full season)
2018 - West Coast 11.6 (7th) defeated Collingwood 11.2 (10th); Port 11.2 (Dixon 20 games)
2019 - Richmond 12.1 (4th) defeated GWS 11.2 (10th); Port 11.8 (Dixon 9 games)
2020 - Richmond 9.6 (3rd) defeated Geelong 10.7 (1st); Port 8.5 (Dixon 18 games - full season)
2021 - Melbourne 12.7 (2nd) defeated Western Bulldogs 12.9 (1st); Port 12.0 (Dixon 24 games - full season)
2022 - Geelong 15.0 (1st) defeated Sydney 11.5 (7th); Port 12.8 (Dixon 12 games)

In 2013, 2014, 2018, 2019 and 2022 we had more marks inside 50 than at least one of the grand finalists. In 2018 we had the same amount as one of the grand finalists. In 2017 we were 3rd behind the eventual grand finalists in this stat.

 

[jakey]

Since they started recording inside 50s in 2007:

2007 - Geelong 57.6 (1st) defeated Port Adelaide 51.2 (9th)
2008 - Hawthorn 51.9 (4th) defeated Geelong 57.8 (1st); Port 47.4
2009 - Geelong 53.2 (2nd) defeated St Kilda 51.9 (5th); Port 47.2
2010 - Collingwood 56.9 (1st) defeated St Kilda 48.1 (12th); Port 47.1
2011 - Geelong 59.7 (2nd) defeated Collingwood 60.6 (1st); Port 43.0
2012 - Sydney 54.4 (6th) defeated Hawthorn 59.6 (1st); Port 45.9 (I think everyone can agree that the Hawks were the better side)
2013 - Hawthorn 55.7 (2nd) defeated Fremantle 47.7 (15th); Port 51.0
2014 - Hawthorn 55.3 (3rd) defeated Sydney 56.2 (2nd); Port 56.2
2015 - Hawthorn 56.1 (1st) defeated West Coast 53.9 (5th); Port 52.6
2016 - Western Bulldogs 54.7 (7th) defeated Sydney 56.2 (4th); Port 54.9
2017 - Richmond 55.8 (3rd) defeated Adelaide 57.5 (2nd); Port 59.3
2018 - West Coast 53.4 (7th) defeated Collingwood 54.7 (3rd); Port 53.4
2019 - Richmond 58.1 (3rd) defeated GWS 51.5 (11th); Port 58.1
2020 - Richmond 47.0 (1st) defeated Geelong 43.1 (5th); Port 46.3
2021 - Melbourne 56.2 (2nd) defeated Western Bulldogs 54.7 (3rd); Port 53.7
2022 - Geelong 57.7 (1st) defeated Sydney 54.3 (9th); Port 52.9

Maybe we focus on inside 50 count because the grand final has literally featured a team in the top four of the inside 50 count since it first started being recorded.

So in the Hinkley reign we've had the same or more i50's than the premier half the time (5 seasons). And not made even a single GF.

And 2 of our 3 most successful (PF) seasons we had less i50's than the premier.

It's almost like you posted proof positive that there is * all correlation between our i50 count relative to the best in the comp, and our own success. And that i50's are a meaningless stat only quoted by losers clutching at straws.

 

[Enviable Tradition]

lol almost all of our I50's are off one step by some shitty midfielder who won the HaRd BaLl GeT while their defenders play in front and just sweep it out.

Who on our list that is getting decent i50 numbers are you defining as a "shitty midfielder"?


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[Enviable Tradition]

Marks inside 50

2010 - Collingwood 14.9 (2nd) defeated St. Kilda 12.3 (7th); Port 10.4 (Schulz 16 games)
2011 - Geelong 15.0 (1st) defeated Collingwood 13.4 (4th); Port 10.5 (Schulz 16 games)
2012 - Sydney 10.8 (12th) defeated Hawthorn 13.3 (4th); Port 8.9 (Schulz 15 games)
2013 - Hawthorn 15.1 (1st) defeated Fremantle 11.6 (12th); Port 12.9 (Schulz 24 games)
2014 - Hawthorn 12.8 (3rd) defeated Sydney 12.1 (6th); Port 13.8 (Schulz 25 games)
2015 - Hawthorn 13.8 (1st) defeated West Coast 13.5 (3rd); Port 11.7 (Schulz 20 games)
2016 - Western Bulldogs 11.3 (14th) defeated Sydney 11.7 (11th); Port 10.3 (Schulz 7 games, Dixon 18 games)
2017 - Richmond 14.0 (2nd) defeated Adelaide 14.6 (1st); Port 13.4 (Dixon 23 games - full season)
2018 - West Coast 11.6 (7th) defeated Collingwood 11.2 (10th); Port 11.2 (Dixon 20 games)
2019 - Richmond 12.1 (4th) defeated GWS 11.2 (10th); Port 11.8 (Dixon 9 games)
2020 - Richmond 9.6 (3rd) defeated Geelong 10.7 (1st); Port 8.5 (Dixon 18 games - full season)
2021 - Melbourne 12.7 (2nd) defeated Western Bulldogs 12.9 (1st); Port 12.0 (Dixon 24 games - full season)
2022 - Geelong 15.0 (1st) defeated Sydney 11.5 (7th); Port 12.8 (Dixon 12 games)

In 2013, 2014, 2018, 2019 and 2022 we had more marks inside 50 than at least one of the grand finalists. In 2018 we had the same amount as one of the grand finalists. In 2017 we were 3rd behind the eventual grand finalists in this stat.

Even marks i50 don't tell the whole story.

There's a big difference between a hack kick marked just inside the boundary 45m out, or a crumbed snap under pressure in an overcrowded foeward line and hitting a lead up forward 25 out right in front.

There's a reason our goal kicking is so poor and it's not just our kicking.

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[Jonts]

I dont understand the mysticism behind why we value I50

We have an undersized backline
Lets protect that as much as possible by keeping the ball inside 50 makes sense to me

 

[EskimoPAFC]

If the stats show we are hitting the kpis but we havent even made a grand final in 15 years its clear something is very, very wrong in our coaching.

 

[Sir Watchalot]

Interesting with all the discussion of the value of inside 50s (which I consider pretty meaningless outside a spanking), and thanks to Janus of marks inside 50 (which I would've though pretty valuable).
I don't have a good segue to this but remember a few years back West Coast's defenders were just unbeatable and no-one but no-one could lob it in and hope their forwards would win. But we went over with a plan to kick in many scraggy ground balls instead so their intercept kings couldn't work their evil magic. And it worked a treat with us winning a game we shouldn't have won. No-one, including us, has done it again. Once Allen, Barras and McGovern started dominating the air in this game I wondered why we didn't just try that again. Plenty of inside 50s but stuff-all marks to anyone.

 

[Schulzenfest]

Maybe we focus on inside 50 count because the grand final has literally featured a team in the top four of the inside 50 count since it first started being recorded.

You know what the grand final hasn't featured? Ken Hinkley.

 

[Sir Watchalot]

You know what the grand final hasn't featured? Ken Hinkley.

1992, 1994 and 1995 would beg to differ