Wouldn’t he be up in the Gold Coast already training by now? Doubt he gets back for Christmas.
List Mgmt. 2022 Trade Thread - Part I
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They all get a Christmas break and Ben King will be in Melbourne training.
gringo2011
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No but teams have ruined their caps chasing pipe dreams. Happy to chase him but within limits.
Jack Green
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For any Saint [like me] old enough to remember, John Pitura says hello
It’ll be a Christmas miracle if QLD shut the border again
gringo2011
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For any Saint [like me] old enough to remember, John Pitura says hello
Before my time but I still think most premiership sides have done the bulk of the list build through drafting or high-value, low-cost trades and picked up needs based players to fill the holes when close. I can't think of any side that has traded in all of their star players. Cooper Sharman was a lottery win you only get when you buy a ticket. Brad Hill is half way through a contract while Kosi Pickett who went with one of his picks is already a premiership player.
Jack Green
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Before my time but I still think most premiership sides have done the bulk of the list build through drafting or high-value, low-cost trades and picked up needs based players to fill the holes when close. I can't think of any side that has traded in all of their star players. Cooper Sharman was a lottery win you only get when you buy a ticket. Brad Hill is half way through a contract while Kosi Pickett who went with one of his picks is already a premiership player.
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Yep, the general go is top end talent through first round draft picks [ as many as you can get in as little years apart as you can get] so they grow and develop together , and then supplement with trade top -ups and canny rookie selections. Probably Sydney 2012 and West Coast 2006 the only real differences to this. Richmond and Hawthorn both classic examples of the high draft selection core followed by trading in pick ups
Agreed on Sharman- really like the look of him.
John Pitura- going back to when I was a very young kid in 1975. Some old timers on this forum will remember.
Richmond sold the farm [ and though snuck another flag in 1980] you could argue it took them decades to recover.
Ben King - I'm sure we will all revisit this throughout next year, but at the moment it is a No from me.
For any Saint [like me] old enough to remember, John Pitura says hello
I remember it well. It was a totally different scenario.
Richmond paid Pitura to walk out of South at the end of 1973 and he missed almost all of 1974 (except the last 6 matches) and the first half of 1975.
Pitura only returned at the end of 1974 because Richmond told him to play again because South were talking to Richmond officials about a trade but wouldn’t negotiate while Pitura was striking.
Pitura missed so much football, and had copped so much media backlash, that he was arguably never the same player again.
In addition, Richmond traded out a great and popular clubman in Brian Roberts (who almost won the Brownlow in 1975), a Brownlow Medalist in Graham Teasdale, and a 100 game defender in Francis Jackson. It destroyed the morale of Richmond’s team.
There is no suggestion St Kilda are going to do that with Ben King if he nominates the Saints. None at all. And Ben’s brother Max is a key player in the team and is a popular player.
And Ben King won’t go on strike like John Pitura did. He will remain engaged as a player with his club and with the game.
A trade for Ben King may involve early picks and/or a player. But it won’t destroy the morale of the club as it did with Richmond. In fact it may have the opposite effect.
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Jack Green
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I knew an old timer [ like me] would pick up the differences - and your right , there are a few. And I like how you have detailed them.
The one similarity is the cost you play to acquire that player. As you yourself say St Neil, 2 of the traded out players won and were close to winning Brownlow medals. Stupid stuff!!
Today's salary cap/draft pick situation is different. It may not damage morale.It may not even involve players . It may cost a raft of present and future draft picks like O'Meara and huge slice of our salary cap. But the cost to give up to acquire the player could be the killer. And let us not be niave here - the cost for Ben King will be exorbitant .
My comparison to John Pitura [despite the correct differences you outline] was the cost involved by the club to land him. And that is why Ben King is a No from me.
I knew an old timer [ like me] would pick up the differences - and your right , there are a few. And I like how you have detailed them.
The one similarity is the cost you play to acquire that player. As you yourself say St Neil, 2 of the traded out players won and were close to winning Brownlow medals. Stupid stuff!!
Today's salary cap/draft pick situation is different. It may not damage morale.It may not even involve players . It may cost a raft of present and future draft picks like O'Meara and huge slice of our salary cap. But the cost to give up to acquire the player could be the killer. And let us not be niave here - the cost for Ben King will be exorbitant .
My comparison to John Pitura [despite the correct differences you outline] was the cost involved by the club to land him. And that is why Ben King is a No from me.
The difference in the two scenarios is that in the Pitura scenario there was no mechanism that enabled Pitura to get from South to Richmond. South just wouldn’t clear him and Pitura was stuck with nowhere to go, regardless of his contractual situation.
The only way out for Pitura was the restraint of trade card, and that wasn’t used until 1983 when St Kilda sued the Swans (VFL) to obtain a clearance for Silvio Foschini and Paul Morwood from the Swans.
That is not the case with Ben King. There are various mechanisms in place such as the trade period, the National draft and the pre-season draft. Plus King is OOC. These days that is important because AFL is a profession and not just a sport.
But there are other important differences. Richmond were obsessed with Pitura because he constantly played out of his skin against them and tore Francis Bourke to shreds in games at Waverley in 1972 and at the Lake Oval in 1973. The Tigers had to pay a ridiculous price for a clearance because there was no mechanism under VFL rules to force a trade.
King can nominate a club and these days a deal will invariably get done. The problem Gold Coast now has is that the last player forced into the draft, because a club held out, was Jack Martin in 2019. And Gold Coast was crucified for it from players, player managers and the AFLPA.
The Suns won’t play that card again. Especially when you consider Ben King’s manager is Paul Connors, the most powerful player manager in the AFL.
I respect your argument, but we are overplaying the scenario that Ben King costs us the world if he nominates us. We will pay two 1st RDPs and maybe a player which discounts one of those picks, but we won’t be extorted. There are too many variables at play that didn’t exist in the days of John Pitura.
Dr Spaceman
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I get where you're coming from, but with respect, you're putting the cart before the horse (a lovely old timer's sayingI knew an old timer [ like me] would pick up the differences - and your right , there are a few. And I like how you have detailed them.
The one similarity is the cost you play to acquire that player. As you yourself say St Neil, 2 of the traded out players won and were close to winning Brownlow medals. Stupid stuff!!
Today's salary cap/draft pick situation is different. It may not damage morale.It may not even involve players . It may cost a raft of present and future draft picks like O'Meara and huge slice of our salary cap. But the cost to give up to acquire the player could be the killer. And let us not be niave here - the cost for Ben King will be exorbitant .
My comparison to John Pitura [despite the correct differences you outline] was the cost involved by the club to land him. And that is why Ben King is a No from me.
).The first thing that will happen is that Ben King will request a trade back to Victoria next year at the end of his current contract (if by some chance he resigns with Gold Coast then all of this becomes irrelevant anyway).
Based on what we know, or strongly suspect, if he does that then he nominates St Kilda as his preferred club.
St Kilda, based on what we know, or strongly suspect, will signal an interest in acquiring Ben and negotiations will commence.
After much toing and froing a final figure will emerge. At that stage we can say whether it's reasonable (in the circumstances) or whether it's excessive and "no way would I do that trade" etc.
Yes there's a chance that a club such as Essendon (as rumoured) comes after him with a huge injection (
) of cash, but if Ben nominates the Saints then that becomes irrelevant.Fascinating watching indeed
Jack Green
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Its a great discussion isn't it and great old timers story.I get where you're coming from, but with respect, you're putting the cart before the horse (a lovely old timer's saying
The first thing that will happen is that Ben King will request a trade back to Victoria next year at the end of his current contract (if by some chance he resigns with Gold Coast then all of this becomes irrelevant anyway).
Based on what we know, or strongly suspect, if he does that then he nominates St Kilda as his preferred club.
St Kilda, based on what we know, or strongly suspect, will signal an interest in acquiring Ben and negotiations will commence.
After much toing and froing a final figure will emerge. At that stage we can say whether it's reasonable (in the circumstances) or whether it's excessive and "no way would I do that trade" etc.
Yes there's a chance that a club such as Essendon (as rumoured) comes after him with a huge injection () of cash, but if Ben nominates the Saints then that becomes irrelevant.
Fascinating watching indeed
I started going to the Saints in 1975 as a 9 year old . Two memories from one game that year was the Saints/Tigers game at Waverly. Richmond going for a 3 peat. I remember looking up at that grainy old VFL PARK scoreboard RICHMOND 9.8 ST KILDA 1.8 . From 8 goals down we came back to win by a kick or 2. One of the greatest wins I've ever experienced. And that means 46 years of attending!!
Driving home with my mates Saints dad , we'd picked up one of his Tiger mates who wasn't as overly impressed as us. And I remember him bitching with a few expletives about John Pitura who must have played that day. Probably didn't get a kick. But your right Graeme Richmond was hell bent on getting Pitura hell or high water caused he'd burnt them a few times.
The Pitura situation strikes me as a classic example of it not taking much to screw your club. We see it at the local level all the time as well.
Enjoyed your evaluation of the differences in play now.
After the toing and froing at the end of next year ,we can all have an opinion about whether we are prepared to pay the cost . I am cautious , perhaps skeptical of the cost being too high. It's certainly a watch this space. My gut feel however is he will return to Victoria, but land elsewhere.
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I wonder how many parts this thread will have before it’s done? We’ve already got half a page on John Pitura (which is interesting reading by the way).
gringo2011
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Taranto probably fills a need a lot more especially if Sharman keeps going like he has been. King probably a harder to find type with more development left potentially. I think Taranto gets us closer to a premiership but it really depends on who steps up next season.
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Couldn't be a serious question?
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This gameIts a great discussion isn't it and great old timers story.
I started going to the Saints in 1975 as a 9 year old . Two memories from one game that year was the Saints/Tigers game at Waverly. Richmond going for a 3 peat. I remember looking up at that grainy old VFL PARK scoreboard RICHMOND 9.8 ST KILDA 1.8 . From 8 goals down we came back to win by a kick or 2. One of the greatest wins I've ever experienced. And that means 46 years of attending!!
Driving home with my mates Saints dad , we'd picked up one of his Tiger mates who wasn't as overly impressed as us. And I remember him bitching with a few expletives about John Pitura who must have played that day. Probably didn't get a kick. But your right Graeme Richmond was hell bent on getting Pitura hell or high water caused he'd burnt them a few times.
The Pitura situation strikes me as a classic example of it not taking much to screw your club. We see it at the local level all the time as well.
Enjoyed your evaluation of the differences in play now.
https://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1975/141519750616.html
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I can't believe people are even questioning whether it's worthwhile or not.
If Aaron Naughton wanted to come to us, would we be questioning it? How about Oscar Allen? A bit older, but Harry McKay?
And those talking about the cost, noone in the history of the game (AFAIA) has cost two firsts outright. Noone. Okay, maybe Judd, but that was ludicrous.
Cameron was traded for first rounders, but early to mid second rounders came back to Geelong as part of the transaction. Same with Treloar. Same with Shiel.
If the Suns can't accept two first rounders outright for an OOC Ben King, then I'd be seriously entertaining the AFL be included through a restraint of trade. We shouldn't be entertaining anything more than this.
If Aaron Naughton wanted to come to us, would we be questioning it? How about Oscar Allen? A bit older, but Harry McKay?
And those talking about the cost, noone in the history of the game (AFAIA) has cost two firsts outright. Noone. Okay, maybe Judd, but that was ludicrous.
Cameron was traded for first rounders, but early to mid second rounders came back to Geelong as part of the transaction. Same with Treloar. Same with Shiel.
If the Suns can't accept two first rounders outright for an OOC Ben King, then I'd be seriously entertaining the AFL be included through a restraint of trade. We shouldn't be entertaining anything more than this.
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What a heartbreaking season 1975 was
After Rd 19 we were sitting 4th with 11 wins (44pts) and 110%
Our last 3 games were against -
Collingwood who were sitting 6th outside the top 5 with 40pts and 90%
North who were sitting 3rd on 48pts and 112%
Richmond who were sitting 5th on 40pts and 111%
So we sit a game clear of the Pies and 20% more with 3 games to go
In Rd 20 we play the Pies and lead by 4 goals at 3 quarter time in a high scoring match 111 to 87 - the Pies then kick 11.3 in the last to our 4.2 and we lose by 19pts - 156 to 137
Tigers beat 2nd place Carlton by 3pts to go 4th - we still sit in 5th place on the same pts as the Pies but 16% ahead
Rd 21 we play North at Arden and get thumped by 70pts - Tigers beat Essendon (10th) and Pies beat top place Hawks by 5 goals
We are now out of the top 5 replaced by Pies going into the last round but with 11% more - we need Pies to lose to Melbourne (9th) and us to beat the Tigers (4th) at the MCG
Pies beat Dees by 1pt and we lose to Tigers by 8 goals but kick 8.20 and have only 3 less scoring shots than the Tigers who kick 17.14
We finish 6th just out of the top 5 - 2 games behind the Pies but with 8% more
Blowing a 4 goal lead going into the last quarter against the Pies in R19 cost us a Finals berth ...... of course 16 years of drudgery in the wilderness followed
Other notable losses in 1975 were
Rd 16 Carlton where we kicked 8.27 (35 shots) to lose by 13pts
Rd 9 Collingwood where we had more scoring shots and lost by 9pts
Rd 7 Geelong where we had more scoring shots and lost by 8pts
Our goal accuracy for the year 270.362 (43%) which was the worst out of all 12 sides yet we were 4th placed for most scoring shots
Gotta love our Saints !!
After Rd 19 we were sitting 4th with 11 wins (44pts) and 110%
Our last 3 games were against -
Collingwood who were sitting 6th outside the top 5 with 40pts and 90%
North who were sitting 3rd on 48pts and 112%
Richmond who were sitting 5th on 40pts and 111%
So we sit a game clear of the Pies and 20% more with 3 games to go
In Rd 20 we play the Pies and lead by 4 goals at 3 quarter time in a high scoring match 111 to 87 - the Pies then kick 11.3 in the last to our 4.2 and we lose by 19pts - 156 to 137
Tigers beat 2nd place Carlton by 3pts to go 4th - we still sit in 5th place on the same pts as the Pies but 16% ahead
Rd 21 we play North at Arden and get thumped by 70pts - Tigers beat Essendon (10th) and Pies beat top place Hawks by 5 goals
We are now out of the top 5 replaced by Pies going into the last round but with 11% more - we need Pies to lose to Melbourne (9th) and us to beat the Tigers (4th) at the MCG
Pies beat Dees by 1pt and we lose to Tigers by 8 goals but kick 8.20 and have only 3 less scoring shots than the Tigers who kick 17.14
We finish 6th just out of the top 5 - 2 games behind the Pies but with 8% more
Blowing a 4 goal lead going into the last quarter against the Pies in R19 cost us a Finals berth ...... of course 16 years of drudgery in the wilderness followed
Other notable losses in 1975 were
Rd 16 Carlton where we kicked 8.27 (35 shots) to lose by 13pts
Rd 9 Collingwood where we had more scoring shots and lost by 9pts
Rd 7 Geelong where we had more scoring shots and lost by 8pts
Our goal accuracy for the year 270.362 (43%) which was the worst out of all 12 sides yet we were 4th placed for most scoring shots
Gotta love our Saints !!
Jack Green
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Yep the game at Moorabbin late in the year against the Pies was the killer. 4 goals up at 3/4 time. Carman in his white boots kicking 11 on Barry Lawrence.
Real 8 point game. Basically decided the last spot in the finals. It was my first year of going to the footy. Probably a portent of what was to come
Jack Green
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Out of interest, would we all be as excessively confident in our support for this trade, if Ben wasn't Max's brother ?
Jack Green
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Agree on both your points. But the second point you make IMO, is why he will land elsewhere.
gringo2011
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Taylor Walker and Josh Bruce must be even more elite then, both more goals off less games. He's an very good player with a high ceiling but he's not elite yet. I think Max will always be the better of the two, Max is more the pack crashing bull type, Ben is more a rangy lead up type who is clean skilled but a bit more of a steady player.
I think if Ben hits his ceiling it's Tom Lynch where Max is more the type to terrorise defences through brutal physical feats like Jack Riewoldt in Charlie Dixon's body.
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