Toast Welcome to St.Kilda - COOPER SHARMAN!

[SaintsSeptember]

Why?

Its not like we're alone in picking players who don't turn out to be guns. Lets average it out at pick 8 - how many genuine stars in this lot

View attachment 1219316

Raph was actually a pretty good choice in that crappy draft.
The stars simply weren't there.
Brent Stanton was actually one of the better choices.
The best was probably Mundy who went first pick in the second round.

2004 wasn't much better. After Jordan Lewis at pick 7, Angus Monfries was probably the best of round 1. We picked McQualter ahead of Cam Wood , Dean Polo, Sean Rusling, and some others i don't remember. Van Berlo was somewhere in the second round.

Not sure we missed anything by trading out of the 2005 draft either, though trading in someone who would go on to play at least one game would have been nice. Actually some other trades came close to as disastrous as ours. North did a first rounder for Jonathan Hay. Port gave up pick 14 for Nathan Lonie ( 2 seasons at Port ). and Essendon gave up pick 23 for Richie Cole.

 

[Joffaboy]

People also gloss over the draft was compromised for thee or so drafts just as we fell off a cliff.

I think the only FRDP we stuffed was McCartin since 2011.

Last few we sacrificed for trades, and I have been as genuinely excited about our unexpected recruits, all looking genuine AFL players
Connelly
Highmore
Byrne's
Bytel
Sharman.

3 hadn't even played a game of AFL and Byrne's and Bytel less than 10.

If you can't get excited about that, well I despair for you.

 

[gringo2011]

People also gloss over the draft was compromised for thee or so drafts just as we fell off a cliff.

I think the only FRDP we stuffed was McCartin since 2011.

Last few we sacrificed for trades, and I have been as genuinely excited about our unexpected recruits, all looking genuine AFL players
Connelly
Highmore
Byrne's
Bytel
Sharman.

3 hadn't even played a game of AFL and Byrne's and Bytel less than 10.

If you can't get excited about that, well I despair for you.

We are good at finding solid talent but it's the cream we've struggled to spot. Billings would have to be equally disappointing up to now. Top 5 pick with Josh Kelly one side and Bont straight after him. King looks like the first top end talent one we've got since Goddard to me. Melbourne ****ed up a heap of drafts and now don't get many first rounders wrong these days.

2020 Bowey
2019 Jackson and Pickett
No first 2016, 2017 and 2018
2015 Oliver and Weiderman
2014 Petracca and Brayshaw
2013 Christian Salem

 

[Diehard Saint]

People also gloss over the draft was compromised for thee or so drafts just as we fell off a cliff.

I think the only FRDP we stuffed was McCartin since 2011.

Last few we sacrificed for trades, and I have been as genuinely excited about our unexpected recruits, all looking genuine AFL players
Connelly
Highmore
Byrne's
Bytel
Sharman.

3 hadn't even played a game of AFL and Byrne's and Bytel less than 10.

If you can't get excited about that, well I despair for you.

Typical Saints to be near the bottom during compromised drafts for both new teams. Hope we’re near the top this time when Tassie comes in.

Spot on about those new recruits. We‘ve really found some players. Let’s hope Max Heath is as promising a player as Sharman appears to be. At the risk of channelling Bruce…Gee…he’s going to be an exciting player.

I‘m bullish about next season.

 

[Ads734]

Absolutely but go through the top 20 players every year and overwhelmingly they are high first rounders. There are always a few exceptions like Fyfe, Neale, Steele etc but you generally get your top players I that first 10 to 15 picks.

The favourites for the 2021 Brownlow: Oliver pick 4, Boak pick 5, Bont pick 4, Pick 5, Petracca pick 2, Merrett pick 26, Wines pick 7, Steele 24 but academy pick so was bid on earlier.

We are lacking top end talent and that's exactly where we have failed. We have hardly had any AA in that period, don't have many in the rising star awards etc. By most measures we have been extremely poor at drafting up until recently. Lethlean came three years ago and has culled 3/4 of the list. I'd say there are 4 to 6 players from the list he took over that will be best 22 next year if Billings, Dunny and Ross go so I think the club agree with me.

Look I completely understand Gringo I really do.



There's so many factors that come into play. For instance everyone may disagree but I have no doubt if Billings had been drafted to say he dogs he would be a star by now.

Also the rising star is a bit of a farce. Firstly there is not criteria for it either the final award or weekly nominations. In addition, I personally think the AFL has abias towards 'name players' and high picks. Also between 2005-2012 we didn't have that many high picks. Even after that the actual quantity of high picks was pretty low.

If you then take into account how we have for the last 15-20 years as a general rule been a strong trader of players into the club the number of players we have drafted has been less and therefore less chances for rising star nominations. Personally I have not always agreed with this.

Our team over the period you speak of was just not that good hence no all Australians, although Jack Steven was unlucky.

I'll talk through 2013 and 2014 specifically because these are the years most often analysed. Now the important thing with looking at the draft that many forget that the picks have to be judged in comparison to the draft as a whole and also the players around the picks


2013 - Had to nail the draft

Billings
Dunstan
Acres

At the time we were looking to just to get in the best talent. Mostly mids. The highest pick we had since Mcevoy in 2007. Billings was probably the consensus(safest choice at 3. We had a look at Bont but probably didn't want to pull the trigger on a risk like that. Initially Billings looked like a player who could average 25 and 2. I think some poor initial development and moving around of positions has severely affected his growth. Obviously after seeing what Bnt has become it looks pretty average pick. Bear in mind the other picks in the top 10 probaly only one is significantly better then Billings being the Bont.

Boyd
Kelly
Bont
Kade K
Scharenberg
Aish
Mcdnald
Salem
Freeman

Dunstan
We were tosiing up between Jones/Merret and Cripps(obviously became unavilable. This again at the time and for the first couple of years seemed like a solid choice. Perhaps his running was always going to be an issue.

Acres
The risky pick, I think development will forever be the issue with Acres. es people will say two clubs he has failed its home not the clubs. I just think we really stuffed him around for a long time switching him between ruck/fwrd/mid/wing etc etc. Maybe I am a little biased here.

2014

Mcartin
Dmac
Goddard
Lonie


On Paddy, look I remember at the time being confused and thinking prior to the draft that Petracca was the best. I am not saying we shouldn;t have picked him in hindsight. I am saying that we will never really know what could;ve been because prio to his injuries he had shown some ability to be a good mark and a goal kicker. Its sad but I just think his career will be forever tainted by the Trac comparrisons when in fact we don't know how good/bad he could've been. The other thing I would say more genreally about 2014 is that it was probably one of the worst years for end of first round picks. The draft had an incredible low number of good players even with in the first round.

Hugh was the same, we will never know what could've been. Like damn an Achilles to somoene whose athleticism is their biggest strength.

Dmac, potentially a reach and many said we shouldve taken Miller. Besdies our guy Jack Steele who at least somewhat off sets the petracca loss even though both woud better the other players around as I said Miller, Mclean, Maynard. Probs the others there but the rest was pretty junk. Dmac has hopefully reserected himself and I think we are yet to see the best from him personally.

Lonie- Well this one I don't see as so bad. Should we have picked Daniel? perhaps Some of the players around there are a bit meh. Seriously have a look at 2014 and you'll see. On the other hand getting Sinclair once again off set the Daniel loss.

As we move up. our drafting seems to improve with a focus on faster/skill-full players. Yes maybe our niche is picking guys later in the draft or as rookies.

Sincs
Wilkie
Marshal
Highmore
Byrnes
Connolly
Hind

I just think it is far to easy for people to say oh we drafted like crap without the wider context. Like yeah mistakes were made but so were some great picks and luck plays a big role as well.









Billings

 

[Ads734]

We are good at finding solid talent but it's the cream we've struggled to spot. Billings would have to be equally disappointing up to now. Top 5 pick with Josh Kelly one side and Bont straight after him. King looks like the first top end talent one we've got since Goddard to me. Melbourne f’ed up a heap of drafts and now don't get many first rounders wrong these days.

2020 Bowey
2019 Jackson and Pickett
No first 2016, 2017 and 2018
2015 Oliver and Weiderman
2014 Petracca and Brayshaw
2013 Christian Salem

would you rather Salem and Dom tyson or Josh Kelly?

 

[puppy_dog7]

Typical Saints to be near the bottom during compromised drafts for both new teams. Hope we’re near the top this time when Tassie comes in.

Spot on about those new recruits. We‘ve really found some players. Let’s hope Max Heath is as promising a player as Sharman appears to be. At the risk of channelling Bruce…Gee…he’s going to be an exciting player.

I‘m bullish about next season.

Yeah, or we will be the tassie team..

 

[gringo2011]

would you rather Salem and Dom tyson or Josh Kelly?

Salem looks good now but Kelly was way out in front for a long time. Salem would be close to elite now.

 

[Diehard Saint]

Yeah, or we will be the tassie team..

I’ll tell you 100% there will be no Melbourne team moving to Tassie.

 

[gringo2011]

Look I completely understand Gringo I really do.



There's so many factors that come into play. For instance everyone may disagree but I have no doubt if Billings had been drafted to say he dogs he would be a star by now.

Also the rising star is a bit of a farce. Firstly there is not criteria for it either the final award or weekly nominations. In addition, I personally think the AFL has abias towards 'name players' and high picks. Also between 2005-2012 we didn't have that many high picks. Even after that the actual quantity of high picks was pretty low.

If you then take into account how we have for the last 15-20 years as a general rule been a strong trader of players into the club the number of players we have drafted has been less and therefore less chances for rising star nominations. Personally I have not always agreed with this.

Our team over the period you speak of was just not that good hence no all Australians, although Jack Steven was unlucky.

I'll talk through 2013 and 2014 specifically because these are the years most often analysed. Now the important thing with looking at the draft that many forget that the picks have to be judged in comparison to the draft as a whole and also the players around the picks


2013 - Had to nail the draft

Billings
Dunstan
Acres

At the time we were looking to just to get in the best talent. Mostly mids. The highest pick we had since Mcevoy in 2007. Billings was probably the consensus(safest choice at 3. We had a look at Bont but probably didn't want to pull the trigger on a risk like that. Initially Billings looked like a player who could average 25 and 2. I think some poor initial development and moving around of positions has severely affected his growth. Obviously after seeing what Bnt has become it looks pretty average pick. Bear in mind the other picks in the top 10 probaly only one is significantly better then Billings being the Bont.

Boyd
Kelly
Bont
Kade K
Scharenberg
Aish
Mcdnald
Salem
Freeman

Dunstan
We were tosiing up between Jones/Merret and Cripps(obviously became unavilable. This again at the time and for the first couple of years seemed like a solid choice. Perhaps his running was always going to be an issue.

Acres
The risky pick, I think development will forever be the issue with Acres. es people will say two clubs he has failed its home not the clubs. I just think we really stuffed him around for a long time switching him between ruck/fwrd/mid/wing etc etc. Maybe I am a little biased here.

2014

Mcartin
Dmac
Goddard
Lonie


On Paddy, look I remember at the time being confused and thinking prior to the draft that Petracca was the best. I am not saying we shouldn;t have picked him in hindsight. I am saying that we will never really know what could;ve been because prio to his injuries he had shown some ability to be a good mark and a goal kicker. Its sad but I just think his career will be forever tainted by the Trac comparrisons when in fact we don't know how good/bad he could've been. The other thing I would say more genreally about 2014 is that it was probably one of the worst years for end of first round picks. The draft had an incredible low number of good players even with in the first round.

Hugh was the same, we will never know what could've been. Like damn an Achilles to somoene whose athleticism is their biggest strength.

Dmac, potentially a reach and many said we shouldve taken Miller. Besdies our guy Jack Steele who at least somewhat off sets the petracca loss even though both woud better the other players around as I said Miller, Mclean, Maynard. Probs the others there but the rest was pretty junk. Dmac has hopefully reserected himself and I think we are yet to see the best from him personally.

Lonie- Well this one I don't see as so bad. Should we have picked Daniel? perhaps Some of the players around there are a bit meh. Seriously have a look at 2014 and you'll see. On the other hand getting Sinclair once again off set the Daniel loss.

As we move up. our drafting seems to improve with a focus on faster/skill-full players. Yes maybe our niche is picking guys later in the draft or as rookies.

Sincs
Wilkie
Marshal
Highmore
Byrnes
Connolly
Hind

I just think it is far to easy for people to say oh we drafted like crap without the wider context. Like yeah mistakes were made but so were some great picks and luck plays a big role as well.









Billings

Luck plays a role but you aren't unlucky for 10 years. Lethlean took over for the 2018 season so he had the playing list from the 2017 season when he arrived and reviewed. Just looking back at that list he must have thought the list was pretty bad, Steele and Membrey weren't drafted.

We have rebuilt the list under Libba and Lethlean and turned the s**t drafting around. Hopefully we do what the Dees have done and nail most of our picks from here on in.

Just to illustrate my point players definitely in for round one next year left are Marshall, Steele, Sinclair, Membrey and probably Gresham, Webster, DMac, and Long, Battle, Joyce. Still listed.

Billings, Ross and Dunstan not definitely gone and Geary sounds like he goes again. 30 off the list of 45 are already gone. That's close to a full rebuild.

St Kilda Playing List for 2017 - Draftguru

www.draftguru.com.au

St Kilda Playing List for 2017 - Draftguru

www.draftguru.com.au

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Typical Saints to be near the bottom during compromised drafts for both new teams. Hope we’re near the top this time when Tassie comes in.

Spot on about those new recruits. We‘ve really found some players. Let’s hope Max Heath is as promising a player as Sharman appears to be. At the risk of channelling Bruce…Gee…he’s going to be an exciting player.

I‘m bullish about next season.

If we are near the top, they will change to a system where all the players of the top ( insert position of StKilda ) teams are free agents for the startup club , and give Tasmania a salary cap that Bill Gates couldn't afford to pay.

 

[Parkysp]

Think some focus needs to return to my young local riverina legend. Enough threads on drafting, trading and development isn't there?

Just love the way CS reads the ball coming in and how to lose his opponent. We've seen young players come in before and get under the radar then not go on with it but I really think his point of difference is something that defenders will continue to struggle with especially given our forward line has others they need to focus on.

 

[Tommy Wigs]

Think some focus needs to return to my young local riverina legend. Enough threads on drafting, trading and development isn't there?

Just love the way CS reads the ball coming in and how to lose his opponent. We've seen young players come in before and get under the radar then not go on with it but I really think his point of difference is something that defenders will continue to struggle with especially given our forward line has others they need to focus on.

Only kicked 10 goals for the whole year. Pretty average. Possible delistee

 

[Joffaboy]

We are good at finding solid talent but it's the cream we've struggled to spot. Billings would have to be equally disappointing up to now. Top 5 pick with Josh Kelly one side and Bont straight after him. King looks like the first top end talent one we've got since Goddard to me. Melbourne f’ed up a heap of drafts and now don't get many first rounders wrong these days.

2020 Bowey
2019 Jackson and Pickett
No first 2016, 2017 and 2018
2015 Oliver and Weiderman
2014 Petracca and Brayshaw
2013 Christian Salem

How can you call
Sharman
Bytel
Byrnes
Connelly

just solid when the are nowhere near their peak. Bloody not 40 games between the four of them and oldest is 21.
You would have called Jack Steele a solid tagger at their age.

Not even near developed, Sharman hasn't even had a preseason, and you are writing them off.
Petracca was useless at their age.

The lengths you go to discredit our kids is astounding

 

[gringo2011]

How can you call
Sharman
Bytel
Byrnes
Connelly

just solid when the are nowhere near their peak. Bloody not 40 games between the four of them and oldest is 21.
You would have called Jack Steele a solid tagger at their age.

Not even near developed, Sharman hasn't even had a preseason, and you are writing them off.
Petracca was useless at their age.

The lengths you go to discredit our kids is astounding

How can you count them as guns before they have shown that they are...apart from Sharman, he's a man god.

Libba looks a million miles ahead of Trout but you can only really assess our list on actual displayed talent. I hope they all end up being stars but history shows that it's rare that one or two of players outside the first round are in the absolute top end of players let alone a group of them. Bytel was at the very top end of the junior talent pathway before he did his back and there is a decent chance that we may have subverted the system but it's also no guarantee.

 

[Jade Buddha]

How can you count them as guns before they have shown that they are...apart from Sharman, he's a man god.

Libba looks a million miles ahead of Trout but you can only really assess our list on actual displayed talent. I hope they all end up being stars but history shows that it's rare that one or two of players outside the first round are in the absolute top end of players let alone a group of them. Bytel was at the very top end of the junior talent pathway before he did his back and there is a decent chance that we may have subverted the system but it's also no guarantee.

Ha, love the Sharman bit. Have never seen a recruit look this good in his first 4 games possibly ever.
Should be playing I’m too sexy for this shirt every time he goes near it.

 

[St Plugger]

Have never seen a recruit look this good in his first 4 games possibly ever.

I have, twice, and both of them in the same team and at the same time.The debut games for both Big Carl and Stewie [Ian Stewart] were amazing and their careers, as most know, continued along that trajectory! If Cooper turns out to be in their class, then we have a beauty!

 

[Jade Buddha]

I have, twice, and both of them in the same team and at the same time.The debut games for both Big Carl and Stewie were amazing and their careers, as most know, continued along that trajectory! If Cooper turns out to be in their class, then we have a beauty!

Saw buckets and Carl play but not their debuts.

 

[pluggeranddoc]

Saw buckets and Carl play but not their debuts.

Different Stewie!
Loewe is the one that wore trousers!

 

[BigMonty]

George Young Gary Sidebottom and Ian McIntosh were breathtaking in their first 4 games. But they were established players in WA.

Graeme Gellie, Stewie Loewe Rod Owen were pretty outstanding...Sharman is equal of them.

On SM-G977B using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[NextYearPlease]

First round picks since 2003.

2003, Raph Clarke, pick 8
2004, Andrew McQualter, pick 17
2005, Swapped pick for Fergus Watts
2006, David Armitage, pick9
2007, Ben McEvoy, pick 9
2008, Tom Lynch, pick 13
2009, Traded for Andrew Lovett
2010, Jamie Cripps, pick 24
2011, Seb Ross, pick 25
2012, Traded for Tom Hickey
2013, Jack Billings, pick 3, Dunstan pick 18, Acres pick 19
2014, Paddy McCartin, pick 1, Hugh Goddard pick 21
2015, Jade Gresham, pick 18 after pick swap for Jake Carlisle
2016, traded pick 10 for a future first and second and third rounders.
2017, Hunter Clark, pick 7, Nick Coffield, pick 8
2018, Max King, pick 4
2019, Traded for Brad Hill
2020, Matthew Allison, pick 26

So far Max King is the only one I would think looks like being a star quality player. Clark, Coff and Gresham still high potential though. That's absolute sh*t considering the amount of those years where we finished nowhere near finals. For all the sh*t Richo copped this is where you look to see why we have been sh*t for so long.

Nothing wrong with Armatage, McKevoy, Lynch, or Cripps - just that 3 of them went on to perform at other clubs.

On SM-T290 using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Nothing wrong with Armatage, McKevoy, Lynch, or Cripps - just that 3 of them went on to perform at other clubs.

On SM-T290 using BigFooty.com mobile app

I think the point was that overall we didn't get much advantage from our first round picks.

I loved Armo, him and Steven carried StKilda on their backs for years. No wonder Armo's back gave out.
If they'd had a few more around them they could have been part of something good. But as a 2 man band, it was not enough.

 

[puppy_dog7]

I think the point was that overall we didn't get much advantage from our first round picks.

I loved Armo, him and Steven carried StKilda on their backs for years. No wonder Armo's back gave out.
If they'd had a few more around them they could have been part of something good. But as a 2 man band, it was not enough.

I loved Armo too, but it was Steven that carried the team. Armo had 1 good year in about 2015/16 but was inconsistent apart from that. Had the heart and was a great clubman but Don’t think he ever worked hard enough.

 

[gringo2011]

Nothing wrong with Armatage, McKevoy, Lynch, or Cripps - just that 3 of them went on to perform at other clubs.

On SM-T290 using BigFooty.com mobile app

All were good players, just still not elite. They were definitely the best of them.

 

[borderbarry]

Saw buckets and Carl play but not their debuts.

I did. Buckets was'nt spectacular,but Big Carls certainly was. As a 17 yr old ruckman he had the media enraptured. I remember Lou Ricchards raving about him.