List Mgmt. 2021 Trade Thread - Part I

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Delisted;
-

Traded;
-

Retired;
Jake Carlisle
Shaun McKernan

Current Players Out of Contract;
3. Zak Jones - Link
6. Sebastian Ross (RFA) - Link
7. Luke Dunstan (RFA) - Link
13. Jack Lonie - Link
15. Jack Billings (RFA) - Link
18. Patrick Ryder - Link
24. James Frawley - Link
25. Dean Kent - Link
38. Oscar Clavarino - Link
39. Darragh Joyce - Link
41. Paul Hunter - Link
42. Max Heath - Link
45. Sam Alabakis - Link


To see the full list (it gets updated regularly) visit this thread;

www.bigfooty.com

List & Contract Status

SENIOR LIST 1. Jack Higgins 2. Marcus Windhager 3. Zak Jones 4. Lance Collard 5. Brad Crouch 6. Sebastian Ross 7. Nasiah Wanganeen-Milera 8. Bradley Hill 9. Jack Steele 10. Mitchito Owens 11. Hunter Clark 12. Max King 13. Ryan Byrnes 14. Liam Stocker 15. Paddy Dow 16. Daniel Butler 17. Isaac...
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aussierulesrules said:
Yeah it’s really nothing like that at all.

Clavarino hasn’t played a single game, while Joyce hasn’t played one for two years- while when he did play he generally looked out of his depth- whereas Howard is a 200cm guy with elite speed and kicking for his height who at just 22yo recorded one of the top 5 tallies (since they started keeping records for it) for 1%ers (ie mostly spoils) by an individual in a season. At AFL level.

And had two AFL games where he recorded two of the top 4 tallies ever recorded in an individual game (20+ in both).

Plus he captained his AFL team in at least one game in his final year with that club, at just 23yo.

His resume at the time he was traded was light years ahead of that of our two at this point.

Hence Howard being worth a heap in a trade, while our two would currently be worth nothing whatsoever.
Click to expand...

Watch the GC game from 2019 and tell me Joyce looked out of his depth.
But i agree about the resume.
 
aussierulesrules said:
Yeah it’s really nothing like that at all.

Clavarino hasn’t played a single game, while Joyce hasn’t played one for two years- while when he did play he generally looked out of his depth- whereas Howard is a 200cm guy with elite speed and kicking for his height who at just 22yo recorded one of the top 5 tallies (since they started keeping records for it) for 1%ers (ie mostly spoils) by an individual in a season. At AFL level.

And had two AFL games where he recorded two of the top 4 tallies ever recorded in an individual game (20+ in both).

Plus he captained his AFL team in at least one game in his final year with that club, at just 23yo.

His resume at the time he was traded was light years ahead of that of our two at this point.

Hence Howard being worth a heap in a trade, while our two would currently be worth nothing whatsoever.
Click to expand...


I meant as far as where they were drafted, cost port a late pick. Turned it into a first rounder while not being a first picked player. I wish we could do that. We took Hind in the 50s developed him for a couple of years and got a pick in the 70s for him that we didn't use. I was highlighting it as a net gain for them. It also happened to work for us.
 
bird_man said:
Couldn't think if a worse example if I tried.

They traded him because they knew he had currency because he's a good player.

Clav and Joyce have played 3 games between them and have zero currency.

I agree it seems like a win win though after they got Giorgiadous

Trading down from 10 to 12 might seem pretty minor but it did mean they missed out on a couple of pretty handy players in between in Day and Pickett though
Click to expand...


They weren't keen to trade him, we got in his ear. There are a few dickheads that enjoy getting outraged around tonight.
 
gringo2011 said:
They weren't keen to trade him, we got in his ear. There are a few dickheads that enjoy getting outraged around tonight.
Click to expand...
Should've been here last night LOL
 
gringo2011 said:
They weren't keen to trade him, we got in his ear. There are a few dickheads that enjoy getting outraged around tonight.
Click to expand...
No need for the name calling mate, I've got feelings ya know 😂

Also, doesn't sound like they weren't keen to trade him when they told his manager to look elsewhere

"AFL trade news 2019: Dougal Howard trade, Port Adelaide, Essendon, St Kilda, North Melbourne, trade rumours, trade whispers" https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/af...s/news-story/22e5c63a5c296e3a64f4e145f363772d

"Port Adelaide defender Dougal Howard never considered leaving the club.

In fact, it “wasn’t an option” for him.

Then, the Power told his manager, David Trotter, that it would be in his best interests if he looked elsewhere."
 
70s sainter said:
Re hill ,
At this stage I would consider a second round pick and we pick up 200 of his 900 per year eg treloar. Then spend the other 700 on an up and coming talent that actually has a crack . That would be best case scenario with him if we couldn’t actually get him playing decent footy
His stocks are super low at the moment though
Click to expand...

Literally zero chance of any club grabbing that. I could see him going to Hawthorn for example, but not for that price. Everyone knows he's on huge dollars and it would be a salary dump for us, so we either get him off the books or we get a draft pick, but not both. Probably not either tbh.
 

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austinnn said:
I think you mean Gold Coast Saints. They would be awesome, though. Maybe most saints fans will be ready after a few more seasons of failure. Ask Fitzroy fans what they think if you can find any.
Click to expand...


They are still around, plenty went over to other clubs but plenty of Lions supporters are old Fitzroy. It's not as bad as it used to be now that you can watch on line. If this rebuild doesn't work we might not have a choice. Post Covid I can see the wallet tightening at AFL house and we are carrying debt. Bad timing.
 
SaintsSeptember said:
Some pretty iffy free kicks sure put pressure on the kid yeah.
I think Carlisle or Brown or someone was back the following week, not sure though.
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Yeah, the umpire crucified him in that game. I don't know if he back chatted him but he was taking the piss on a few of them. On that I still reckon DMac's free where he went to ground to pick up a loose ball and was immediately tackled was not a free kick. Surely you don't have to stop and watch the ball. I thought you had to have prior opportunity to dispose of the ball. It wasn't like he had the ball lost it and pulled it back in. You are entitled to try to pick the ball up.
 
stfan said:
To my way of thinking in the last several years we have gained two types of players from other clubs.

1/ Those that were a genuine chance of being best 22. Though players like Kent were stretching it.

2/ Those that were either only back up or really outside chances to make it.

Now while we can argue about the first group by and large it has been ok. Hannas is a bust, cost huge dollars but at least the trade price was low. Hill trade price was huge, as were the $$$. The lack of young talent by gaining Hill might bite us badly going forward unless he can really turn things around as at present we have only an average player from it who plays the occasional really good game..


However the second group as a collective is now starting to look like a huge blunder as it just means that we have been churning through less new unknown players who might become something.
  • Marsh, Abbott, McKernan, Wood, Hunter
  • The three pick ups this year all smack of the club only thinking about 2021, and not future years as well. Especially when you add Frawley to this group (capable of being first 22, but time clocking ticking on his career).
Now going for younger players is of course no guarantee and will be hit or miss, but at least there may of being the chance of finding another Marshall or Sinclair.

Sadly it is looking more and more like the Saints want to be big traders and recycler as they just are not much chop at drafting raw talent.
Click to expand...

Because we'd drafted so poorly for years on end, there were huge gaps in the list, and looks like the decision made was to fill them with mature bodies.

For the 2008 - 2016 drafts, our total decent players were:

2008: 0 - (Tom Lynch), (Rhys Stanley)
2009: 0
2010: 0 - (Jamie Cripps)
2011: 2 - Seb Ross, Jimmy Webster, (Jack Newnes)
2012: 0
2013: 2 - Jack Billings, Luke Dunstan, (Blake Acres)
2014: 2 - Jack Lonie, Dan McKenzie
2015: 1 - Jade Gresham
2016: 1 - Josh Battle

Obviously 08 - 12 was particularly bad but even after that not much has stuck.

Here's how we attempted to top up players from those draft years:

2008: 7 - Ahmed Saad (2011), Sam Dunell (2011), Tom Lee (2012), Luke Delaney (2013), Shane Savage (2013), Dan Hannebery (2018), Shaun McKernan (2020)
2009: 5 - Cam Shenton (2011), Tom Hickey (2012), Dylan Roberton (2012), Jake Carlisle (2015), Koby Stevens (2016)
2010: 3 - Josh Bruce (2013), Mav Weller (2013), Ryan Abbott (2019)
2011: 3 - Billy Longer (2013), Brad Hill (2019), Paul Hunter (2020)
2012: 4 - Tim Membrey (2014), Dean Kent (2018), Brad Crouch (2020), Mason Wood (2020)
2013: 7 - Jack Sinclair (2014), Nathan Freeman (2015), Rowan Marshall (2016), Nick Hind (2018), Robbie Young (2018), Jono Marsh (2018), Zak Jones (2019)
2014: 7 - Nick Coughlan (2015), Jack Steele (2016), Logan Austin (2017), Matty Parker (2018), Cal Wilkie (2018), Dan Butler (2019), Dougal Howard (2019)
2015: 0
2016: 1 - Tom Highmore (2020)

Looks a lot like we've been chasing our tails trying to fill up those holes.

I mean, 08 - 12 we ended up drafting 2 who made it, but later grabbed 22 other players from those draft years! Then from the 13 - 14 years another 14 players. That's 36 players, almost a full list of top-ups in those seven years.

Pretty ridiculous drafting. Surely a dartboard would have done better.
 
bergholt said:
Because we'd drafted so poorly for years on end, there were huge gaps in the list, and looks like the decision made was to fill them with mature bodies.

For the 2008 - 2016 drafts, our total decent players were:

2008: 0 - (Tom Lynch), (Rhys Stanley)
2009: 0
2010: 0 - (Jamie Cripps)
2011: 2 - Seb Ross, Jimmy Webster, (Jack Newnes)
2012: 0
2013: 2 - Jack Billings, Luke Dunstan, (Blake Acres)
2014: 2 - Jack Lonie, Dan McKenzie
2015: 1 - Jade Gresham
2016: 1 - Josh Battle

Obviously 08 - 12 was particularly bad but even after that not much has stuck.

Here's how we attempted to top up players from those draft years:

2008: 7 - Ahmed Saad (2011), Sam Dunell (2011), Tom Lee (2012), Luke Delaney (2013), Shane Savage (2013), Dan Hannebery (2018), Shaun McKernan (2020)
2009: 5 - Cam Shenton (2011), Tom Hickey (2012), Dylan Roberton (2012), Jake Carlisle (2015), Koby Stevens (2016)
2010: 3 - Josh Bruce (2013), Mav Weller (2013), Ryan Abbott (2019)
2011: 3 - Billy Longer (2013), Brad Hill (2019), Paul Hunter (2020)
2012: 4 - Tim Membrey (2014), Dean Kent (2018), Brad Crouch (2020), Mason Wood (2020)
2013: 7 - Jack Sinclair (2014), Nathan Freeman (2015), Rowan Marshall (2016), Nick Hind (2018), Robbie Young (2018), Jono Marsh (2018), Zak Jones (2019)
2014: 7 - Nick Coughlan (2015), Jack Steele (2016), Logan Austin (2017), Matty Parker (2018), Cal Wilkie (2018), Dan Butler (2019), Dougal Howard (2019)
2015: 0
2016: 1 - Tom Highmore (2020)

Looks a lot like we've been chasing our tails trying to fill up those holes.

I mean, 08 - 12 we ended up drafting 2 who made it, but later grabbed 22 other players from those draft years! Then from the 13 - 14 years another 14 players. That's 36 players, almost a full list of top-ups in those seven years.

Pretty ridiculous drafting. Surely a dartboard would have done better.
Click to expand...

A few years ago i used a random number generator in Excel to revisit drafts , and make a random pick from a list of Players, which had been been considered draftable by that Knightmare, and did our drafts between, i think it was 09 to 2013.
It randomly picked a player that had not been picked by other teams in reality at that pick.
I could have ranked the players according to where others thought they would go in the draft but i didn't so i ended up picking rookie choices for a second round pick , but i got some good ones too.

I only ran it a few times , because it was fairly arduous. I think one time it was more or less as good as what we had done in reality.
The other two times it was better.
So i agree , a dartboard would have done better.
 
Murraj1966 said:
I do sometimes think though that our poor drafting was nurture rather than nature with the exception of Mccartin.
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Zero A grade players in an 8 year window is like Trout was an Essendon plant bad. In reality we dropped off after we drafted the generation that came in the Blight to GT era. No club has drafted less top end players than us since the early 2000s. In the 90s it was the opposite, we had our superstars and not much under them.
 
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Some notes and thoughts on the Patriots and the NFL.
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The Patriots had a twenty year run beating a system designed for clubs to move up and down. They have a hard salary cap a draft and a cap on list numbers.

They haven’t even been that fantastic in the first round of the draft although they haven’t had many low picks. Anyway drafting, trading and identifying undrafted talent then developing the talent correctly is how you give yourself a chance to win flags.

St Kilda have been pretty poor for long periods in drafting and recruiting so it’s no surprise we haven’t been successful on the field. We need to trim some fat from other areas and spend some money where it all starts Imo.
 
Yawkey way said:
l.patsfans.com

Sunday Patriots Notes: Bill Belichick is the king of draft pick trading

Some notes and thoughts on the Patriots and the NFL.
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The Patriots had a twenty year run beating a system designed for clubs to move up and down. They have a hard salary cap a draft and a cap on list numbers.

They haven’t even been that fantastic in the first round of the draft although they haven’t had many low picks. Anyway drafting, trading and identifying undrafted talent then developing the talent correctly is how you give yourself a chance to win flags.

St Kilda have been pretty poor for long periods in drafting and recruiting so it’s no surprise we haven’t been successful on the field. We need to trim some fat from other areas and spend some money where it all starts Imo.
Click to expand...
Yeah, you only need to talk to an average Pat’s fan (and I know at least two) and they’ll say the same thing.
Even Brady was a fourth round pick (something weird like that).
In our defence however, we didn’t start investing money (because things were tight) until the post Trout era.
Unfortunately, still too early to call whether the extra investment is successful.
But intuitively you’d expect so.
 
sunny3193 said:
Yeah, you only need to talk to an average Pat’s fan (and I know at least two) and they’ll say the same thing.
Even Brady was a fourth round pick (something weird like that).
In our defence however, we didn’t start investing money (because things were tight) until the post Trout era.
Unfortunately, still too early to call whether the extra investment is successful.
But intuitively you’d expect so.
Click to expand...
He was picked in the sixth round pick 199 sheer luck.

What‘s interesting is that about 30% of nfl players are undrafted free agents. Clearly despite the intense scrutiny and a much longer look in terms of draft age clubs still miss big and often. I think you really need to know what type of players suit your game and how to develop them. Richmond seem to have it worked and hawthorn were pretty good at it as well imo.
 
Last edited:
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To understand who the Patriots might draft, you have to understand how they evaluate players. Tom E. Curran pulls back the curtain to take a look at how Bill Belichick organizes his draft boards.
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This is a fascinating insight into how a team that has been successful approaches the draft.
 
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