Roast WHAT I WANT TO SEE FROM A WELL COACHED PORT SIDE THAT KEN HINKLEY HAS FAILED TO SHOW US

How will Janus twist this?


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AwwThatsApples

TheMagpieMan
Mar 24, 2019
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Irrelevant excuses. Port hasn't been anyone's priority ever.
Well the SANFL certainly didn't prioritize helping us to get our 36 premierships so you're not wrong.
But this isn't the SANFL anymore and whilst I don't believe much in biased umpiring you can't really deny that all the premierships teams in the last ten years have been helped by the umpires, have we? I think we both know the answer
 

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Magus

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Well the SANFL certainly didn't prioritize helping us to get our 36 premierships so you're not wrong.
But this isn't the SANFL anymore and whilst I don't believe much in biased umpiring you can't really deny that all the premierships teams in the last ten years have been helped by the umpires, have we? I think we both know the answer
Ok yeah you're just trolling. Please go.
 

Janus

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There's a difference between viewing finals as a success and seeing that making finals and winning finals regularly is a sign of consistency and giving yourself the best opportunity year after year.

If Hinkley had gotten this team playing finals more often than not and won a couple, I think you'd find that many people (myself included) would have some faith that he has what it takes to keep us moving forward. Unfortunately it's the opposite but here you are trying to argue that consistently missing out completely isn't relevant to our progress at all.

I guarantee that if Buckley's team was having another down year the way Melbourne are, the blowtorch would be back on him and that's the way it should be.
Melbourne are closer to Port Adelaide circa 2015-2018 than any team I can remember. Pretty much this year's 2017 Western Bulldogs without the flag.

Here's a game for you to play. Tell me who this team is, based on their finishes to the season:

10th
11th
Elimination final
12th
9th
12th
Preliminary final
Semi final
10th
 

AwwThatsApples

TheMagpieMan
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Ok yeah you're just trolling. Please go.
I believe I made myself quite clear.
We didn't need ballshit umpiring to win a premiership, and same goes for almost all 37 of our premierships as far as I'm concerned.
You're right about our club never being prioritized by the league, but in a moddest setting of football a lack of priority can be extremely detrimental.
Collingwood, Geelong, Sydney, Hawthorn, Bulldogs, Richmond and West Coast have all had beneficial umpiring to help them win their premierships, which isn't to say some of those teams didn't deserve the premierships they got, but the umpiring certainly would've helped.
Take one good look at the Prelim in 2014 and tell me the umps DIDN'T want Hawthorn to win that game.
The decline in umpiring quality over the past decade is a whole nother subject on it's own.
We have to work hard for things to go our way, so whilst 2013 and 2014 may not have looked so great from an outsiders perspective, the amount of heart and work we poured in would've been more than enough for a prioritized club in the league to win a premiership.
I'm not trying to excuse Ken, because he has underachieved so far in many tactical areas, but the expectation laid on our club has nothing to do with him or the board.
 

Kiss from a Rozee

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I don’t think we’ve had a consistent system or a group with good cohesion for a long time. Not even sure we had it under Mark Williams.

Geelong and Hawthorn have been building that for 15 years, and have both been reaping the benefits for a decade. Sydney were similar for a while, West Coast are similar now.

I’m not convinced our gameplan has been consistent, but parts of the system have at least - forward pressure comes to mind. I definitely think our playing list has improved a ****load in the last 10 years though. We still haven’t found proven KPFs but we are so much closer than the days of Stewart or Butcher or Mitch Harvey.

I’m not crediting Ken with this btw, I don’t think list management has much at all to do with him.

That list management has been our major issue though and I honestly think it largely came down to a lack of funding.

I reckon a good example is the difference between 2014/15 and now. Back then we lost Cassisi, Kornes, Ryder and Monfries. We couldn’t replace a single one of them in our side even with an off season to find someone in almost every case - I reckon with Ryder/Monfries we took the gamble.

This year we lost Wingard, Polec and Pittard and have easily covered for all three of them. In Pittard’s case he was surplus to needs, but with Wingard we brought in Rozee/Butters and moved Boak through the midfield, and with Polec we recruited Burton, Duursma and Mayes who can all play his role (perhaps not as well but that’s not my point).

We’ve also suffered a massive amount of injuries and been able to cover nearly all of them to some degree. Albeit with a big drop in quality and consistency.

And now to top it off, Ryder who’s suspension single handedly ended our season in 2016 is now being talked of as delist material.

Once again, not defending Ken here. I’m defending our club. We were absolutely ****** 10 years ago, and now we are building towards a strong list, covering all bases. If we change coach now I’m all for it, but I think that’s only a very small part of the overall plan.

Consistent system, and players that enhance that system. I think we have really seen that in the past two years but in 2019 in particular. The mistakes from coaching staff have definitely cost us, but the overall strategy looks good to me and I’m happy for that to continue under a new coach if necessary. I don’t think we need to light our list on fire and sack every coach and start again though.
 

Us against the rest

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I believe I made myself quite clear.
We didn't need ballshit umpiring to win a premiership, and same goes for almost all 37 of our premierships as far as I'm concerned.
You're right about our club never being prioritized by the league, but in a moddest setting of football a lack of priority can be extremely detrimental.
Collingwood, Geelong, Sydney, Hawthorn, Bulldogs, Richmond and West Coast have all had beneficial umpiring to help them win their premierships, which isn't to say some of those teams didn't deserve the premierships they got, but the umpiring certainly would've helped.
Take one good look at the Prelim in 2014 and tell me the umps DIDN'T want Hawthorn to win that game.
The decline in umpiring quality over the past decade is a whole nother subject on it's own.
We have to work hard for things to go our way, so whilst 2013 and 2014 may not have looked so great from an outsiders perspective, the amount of heart and work we poured in would've been more than enough for a prioritized club in the league to win a premiership.
I'm not trying to excuse Ken, because he has underachieved so far in many tactical areas, but the expectation laid on our club has nothing to do with him or the board.
What you say here has some truth. (the bolded part) This is why the direction of the current board CEO and President is not suited to Port Adelaide. We have passionate fans that expect success, granted a harder task in the expanded VFL competition.

I have said this before, the only way our club will ever get respect from the media, especially in SA, the rest of the competition is to win. I know we can't win every game but we need to be in the finals more than not. We are not the Crows or Freo where they still get their 35,000 even when they are crap. We have to live out our traditions, the same traditions that got us into the AFL. The 1990 GF was no fluke, it was by design. Our supporter base will stay true as long as we play good footy and push for a premiership.

It's a very hard competition to win a flag in, too many teams, unequal draws and so on.
As far as the umpires are concerned, I don't blame them only, The powers to be at AFL house seem to think they can just change the rules every season, which then the umpires have to interpret, another grey area. This would be be the only sport I know that doesn't even have a standard dimension for all grounds.
 
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Enviable Tradition

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I get what Janus is saying and he's right to a degree. To win the flag be it a one off like the Bulldogs, all your little ducks have to be lined up properly, our trouble is we have one ugly duckling and that is Hinkley.
We can't expect to win a flag, with sub standard skills that only stand up against weak opposition. Every thing has to be right and every one buying in and on the same page.
Making finals is not what Port used to be about, it was achieving the ultimate prize but you have to make finals first.
I dont want to win a fluke flag like the Bulldogs and then disappear. That shouldn't be our goal.

We need to set up a culture of success like Geelong, Hawthorn, WCE and Sydney. That is what Port do.

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Enviable Tradition

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I'm just saying with or without Ken our club expectations from an outside perspective or an AFL perspective will remain the same.
We have to work hard against the odds to accomplish a premiership, because we are not the AFL's priority, money is.
If we were we would've came into the AFL in 1991 like we should have, and we wouldn't of needed a Malcolm Blight to ******* gift us two premierships, we could've gotten that and more on our own.
We should relish proving outsiders wrong.

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Pappagallo

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I dont want to win a fluke flag like the Bulldogs and then disappear. That shouldn't be our goal.

We need to set up a culture of success like Geelong, Hawthorn, WCE and Sydney. That is what Port do.

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I’d almost throw Collingwood in there too. I know they haven’t achieved the same level of success as the others but they’ve given themselves plenty of chances with 5x Grand Final appearances in less than 20 years (6x if you include the replay).
 

Magus

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I dont want to win a fluke flag like the Bulldogs and then disappear. That shouldn't be our goal.

We need to set up a culture of success like Geelong, Hawthorn, WCE and Sydney. That is what Port do.

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Fluked flag, sustained success, I'd take anything above what we are and what we've been at this point. (Not that I think anyone can aim to fluke something - it still takes some degree of effort.)
 
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Windy Cindy

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Fluked flag, sustained success, I'd take anything above what we are and what we've been at this point.
spot on, id do the same

cant be bothered reading the arguments for and against, i can see with my own eyes we are a boring mediocre side that will consistently let us down when we need a win and do it in the same way as the last 6 years.

For me, this week is a must win game, massive game to get a break on freo and a few sides, and i have absolutely no faith we can win.
 

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Magus

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Melbourne are closer to Port Adelaide circa 2015-2018 than any team I can remember. Pretty much this year's 2017 Western Bulldogs without the flag.

Here's a game for you to play. Tell me who this team is, based on their finishes to the season:

10th
11th
Elimination final
12th
9th
12th
Preliminary final
Semi final
10th
Not sure, do tell? I'm curious to see your new theory.
 

Us against the rest

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I dont want to win a fluke flag like the Bulldogs and then disappear. That shouldn't be our goal.

We need to set up a culture of success like Geelong, Hawthorn, WCE and Sydney. That is what Port do.

On SM-G960F using BigFooty.com mobile app
Yeah, I didn't mean that's is what we should do, I was pointing out that unless every one at the club is on the same page, we wont get continued success.

The younger guys seem to be fine but the older guys I'm not so sure, a few weeks back people noticed they looked disinterested. Could it be that Ken has lost the more experienced players.
 
Jun 11, 2019
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Melbourne are closer to Port Adelaide circa 2015-2018 than any team I can remember. Pretty much this year's 2017 Western Bulldogs without the flag.

Here's a game for you to play. Tell me who this team is, based on their finishes to the season:

10th
11th
Elimination final
12th
9th
12th
Preliminary final
Semi final
10th
For anyone that had to check like me, it's Geelong up to 2006.

At least like Geelong we have managed to build a system that is consistently mediocre. That means we already have a consistent system though, and if we somehow make the step up to a top tier team it will be sustainable - none of that Bulldogs drop off stuff.
 

RussellEbertHandball

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A team takes on the personality of its coach.

Hinkley is flaky and so is Port. We have been flaky and yo-yoing in 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018 and now 2019, thru low injury periods, thru high injury periods, thru CAS and other suspensions, through playing kids, thru playing lots of old blokes, thru the gold passes, thru the give the kids a go phase, thru recruiting experienced players, thru changing the game style, thru just about every bloody thing. We just change some of actors in the same play. There has been 1 major constant.

The more things change, the more they stay the same it seems. Sure the 2nd half should be better with a healthy list and getting the 100-200 gamers back, but there hasn't been any fundamental change to the way we play in 4.5 seasons. We have the odd success against a top side, we have the odd surprise positive result, but we have finessed around the edges rather than made fundamental change - and that's why we keep losing to the same sides the same way with the odd success - Adelaide, Geelong, Essendon, West Coast, Fremantle in Perth, Hawks in Tassie etc.

I know I called us flaky, but Biscuits might be a better name. Like biscuits, we crumbled under sustained pressure.
 
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RussellEbertHandball

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For anyone that had to check like me, it's Geelong up to 2006.

At least like Geelong we have managed to build a system that is consistently mediocre. That means we already have a consistent system though, and if we somehow make the step up to a top tier team it will be sustainable - none of that Bulldogs drop off stuff.
Nice opening post. Welcome aboard.

It was 12th, 11th, change coach -then elimination final.

They have Stephen Wells - not Blair Hartley/Geof Parker / Jason Cripps over a 10 year draft/trading period.
 

El_Scorcho

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I’m not talking about 2019. I’m talking about the lack of success between 2015-2018.

Geelong delisted 7 players at the end of 2014. None of them were best 22. They also traded Varcoe for Clark (bust), Christensen for Stanley (best 22 and still on their list) and did a deal with Adelaide to get Cockatoo in the draft (still on their list).

In 2015, they finished below us in 10th. McIntosh and Rivers retired and Kelly, Stokes and Johnson weren’t offered new contracts. They brought in Dangerfield (best 22), Henderson (best 22) and Smith (best 22) as trades.

At the end of 2016, they brought in Tuohy (best 22) as an FA and drafted Parfitt (best 22) and Stewart (best 22).

At the end of 2017, they traded for Ablett (best 22) and drafted Kelly (best 22), Miers (best 22), Constable and Fogarty.

And all the while they had their premiership list as their base to build off of - guys like Mackie, Lonergan etc.

8 of their best 22 this year is trades and free agents. Dangerfield, Ablett, Tuohy, Stanley, Henderson, Smith, Dahlhaus, Rohan. That’s not to mention Scott Selwood who is still running around on their list as another FA.

They have been successful because they’ve used trades and FA to replace departing players with established talent that has already played 50 games. Which you can do when you’ve established yourself as a contender every year.

That’s what every club is trying to do - be a destination club with FA/trades so they can allow their kids to develop without pressure to perform, and then move on the older players when the kids are ready to step up.
Yeah look, this is just white noise totally separate from the point you made.

You used player turnover as another weak excuse for our lack of consistency and success under Hinkley.

Geelong have turned over more of their best 22 than we have and they've been able to maintain consistent form throughout and are on track to finish top in a canter in 2019.

We've also managed to add some high quality established players through trades and FA in that time. We went into the 2015 as flag favourites and then over the next 4 years added Ryder Dixon Rockliff Watts Motlop Lycett and Burton, as well as the likes of Thomas, MacKenzie and Trengove.

Haven't won a single final and we've been woefully inconsistent throughout, but it's certainly not because of player turnover.
 

Janus

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Nice opening post. Welcome aboard.

It was 12th, 11th, change coach -then elimination final.

They have Stephen Wells - not Blair Hartley/Geof Parker / Jason Cripps over a 10 year draft/trading period.
Sounds similar to Port 2011/12, change coach - then semi final.

What wasn’t similar was the commitment the players made to each other. It happened in the 2006 off season for Geelong. It happened this preseason for Port.

The fact that we are top five in 4 out of the 5 premiership statistics according to Champion Data without guys like Dixon, Wines and Hartlett making a meaningful contribution to the year should give people cause for optimism.
 

Us against the rest

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A team takes on the personality of its coach.

Hinkley is flaky and so is Port. We have been flaky and yo-yoing in 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018 and now 2019, thru low injury periods, thru high injury periods, thru CAS and other suspensions, through playing kids, thru playing lots of old blokes, thru the gold passes, thru the give the kids a go phase, thru recruiting experienced players, thru changing the game style, thru just about every bloody thing. We just change some of actors in the same play. There has been 1 major constant.

The more things change, the more they stay the same it seems. Sure the 2nd half should be better with a healthy list and getting the 100-200 gamers back, but there hasn't been any fundamental change to the way we play in 4.5 seasons. We have the odd success against a top side, we have the odd surprise positive result, but we have finessed around the edges rather than made fundamental change - and that's why we keep losing to the same sides the same way with the odd success - Adelaide, Geelong, Essendon, West Coast, Fremantle in Perth, Hawks in Tassie etc.

I know I called us flaky, but Biscuits might be a better name. Like biscuits, we crumbled under sustained pressure.
Spot on post.
 

Janus

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Yeah look, this is just white noise totally separate from the point you made.

You used player turnover as another weak excuse for our lack of consistency and success under Hinkley.

Geelong have turned over more of their best 22 than we have and they've been able to maintain consistent form throughout and are on track to finish top in a canter in 2019.

We've also managed to add some high quality established players through trades and FA in that time. We went into the 2015 as flag favourites and then over the next 4 years added Ryder Dixon Rockliff Watts Motlop Lycett and Burton, as well as the likes of Thomas, MacKenzie and Trengove.

Haven't won a single final and we've been woefully inconsistent throughout, but it's certainly not because of player turnover.
It’s not actually. The reason why Geelong could get decent picks/players for their trades is because they already had a strong list. They were operating from a position of plenty and as such could demand better deals for their players. That’s how they could get Dangerfield for that ridiculously low price - they leveraged their reputation of having a strong list as the reason why Dean Gore wasn’t going to get games...but he’s really good!

When we traded out players, we got dregs in return.

You’re the one who is comparing the two, not me. The difference is chalk and cheese.
 

El_Scorcho

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It’s not actually. The reason why Geelong could get decent picks/players for their trades is because they already had a strong list. They were operating from a position of plenty and as such could demand better deals for their players. That’s how they could get Dangerfield for that ridiculously low price - they leveraged their reputation of having a strong list as the reason why Dean Gore wasn’t going to get games...but he’s really good!

When we traded out players, we got dregs in return.

You’re the one who is comparing the two, not me. The difference is chalk and cheese.
Dean Gore was meaningless steak knives in that trade, but we've traded averagely because we weren't willing to move on players while they had value.

Despite that, we also leveraged our position as an exciting up and coming side to add considerable quality to our list. I think you'd agree that our list is better than it was in 2014.

You said we haven't been consistent or successful because we've had to turn over 15 of our best 22. So has everyone else, and the current flag favourites have turned over more.

It's not a reasonable excuse, it's another garbage excuse.
 

RussellEbertHandball

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Sounds similar to Port 2011/12, change coach - then semi final.

What wasn’t similar was the commitment the players made to each other. It happened in the 2006 off season for Geelong. It happened this preseason for Port.

The fact that we are top five in 4 out of the 5 premiership statistics according to Champion Data without guys like Dixon, Wines and Hartlett making a meaningful contribution to the year should give people cause for optimism.
The 2006 Geelong review saw them bring in a new fitness head - Dean Robinson, whose methods leave open a lot of doubt how above board they were, and appointed for the first time a Footy Ops Manager - Neil Balme, to take stuff away from Thompson. We haven't made those sort of 2 fundamental preseason changes. Its the same old in those 2 departments.

Dixon and Hartlett have missed all 11 games

Big expectations and we stuffed up
Brisbane - Wines rushed back, Watts out - we choked when it counted (Gray, Ebert, Burton, Lycett, Jonas, Wines all played)
Richmond - we choked again doing the same basic mistakes as the last 5 seasons (no changes)

Collingwood, Crows, Hawks yes lots of players missing but we dont show up in the 1st quarter when expectations are high we would compete and spend the rest of the game playing catch up and fail miserably apart from a 10 minute run in the last quarter against the crows because the coach finally wakes up we need a decent forward structure not Hoff as our KPF.

Stats have fooled us before. 2017 we belted the middle class and cellar dwellers and the stats said we were great or very good in a lot of areas but when we played the top sides The HPN guys in 2017 picked it up and said you can't trust Port because our stats are biased by our results against the bottom sides. They re-stratified the stats into top 8 and bottom 10 sides, they showed we were poor against the top 8 and you and Forza said that was crap, but they were right. Stats fooled us at 11-4 last year.

You reckon we can do a Geelong and win the flag, then we beat Geelong, Freo in Perth, Adelaide in their showdown, GWS, Sydney, Essendon and Richmond at the G - no more excuses.

Ken has to go bloody try some dumplings, dim sims, noodles, sweet and sour pork, Peking duck, spicy spring rolls etc and get off the toasted ham, cheese and tomato sandwiches . Try something new and filling not the same boring ****.
 

Amarula

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Footy in 2019 is very different to footy in 2014. A lot of clubs make mistakes by trying to copy last year’s premier, or even the premier of two or three years ago. Ken’s passion for defensive forwards seems like an attempt to copy Richmond’s 2017 side.
There’s no point in playing 2017 footy (let alone 2014 footy) with our side, because we don’t have a 2017 (or 2014) side.
The best sides in 2019 so far - Geelong & Collingwood - play very differently to Richmond. Note, for instance, that neither of them are that great with clearances or contested ball, but this makes them no less effective.
The premiership coach in each of the past few years seems to have found a game plan that’s different to how they’ve played previously, but which suits their team’s strengths and weaknesses perfectly. The middle teams seem to try to copy one of the recent premiers, but the game has moved past them.
And yes, it helps to have a full list.
 
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