Toast John Kennedy Snr elevated to Legend Status in the Hall of Fame

[Slax]

Helped transform the Hawks but adding a bit of mayo to say he is responsible for 13 flags.

He didn't transform Hawthorn single-handily either, that would be ignoring the efforts put in by the likes of Phil Ryan (president in early 70s), plus the ability to get so much elite talent in the club, players like Mathews, Tuck, Hudson, Scott, Knights (and so many others) had a huge influence in building the winning culture Hawks have.

 

[Farang83150]

You guys don’t get what a legend is. It is about their contribution to the game. What they did and what they inspired other to do. JK changed the way players trained. Hawthorn in the 1961 and 1971 had little skill, but were fitter and stronger. He set up and inspired the most successful club of the past 60 years. Without him we could be like St Kilda. He is probably responsible for 13 premierships.
That is the stuff of legend.

LOL...Massive irony.

 

[Papa G]

Oh please,

The Port Adelaide Power have had 23 years to prove their wares in the premier competition in the land and have a measly one flag plus 119 to show for it.

By comparison Hawthorn has 4 flags and 5 grand finals in that time.

If Box Hill had to compete with West Adelaide and Woodville they’d probably have 20 flags too

Matt Stevic has done more for Hawthorn than Kennedy ever did. Surely he needs to be the next Legend?

 

[IKnowtheDog]

It’s funny that the AFL/VFL doesn’t have its own Hall of Fame.

Maybe that was the intention when establishing it in 1996 as part of the AFL/VFL centenary celebration. Unfortunately the creators of the concept made a mess of it.

 

[Gavin Excell]

Not as if his speech made any difference anyway. They were 20 points down at half time when he made it. They ended up losing by 55 points.

The "don't think, do" speech was in the context of being beaten but at least having the stomach to have a crack - to look someone in the eye and say that I at least contributed.

 

[Slax]

Agree, I think Sheedy was just an exceptional stint as coach, bearing in mind administration does not count, in a role including marketing and expansion effect on the game in a important growth period becoming a national comp including international exposure so really that was an an exception rather than the rule.

Barrassi did both like Blight and there are not many more in terms of coaches in the legend status. Fair enough to because as coaches you rely on a lot of others arguably even more so than players who rely on teammates as well on field as well as support cast off field

Sheedy deserved his not just for his coaching record either, but as a player too. He was originally inducted into HoF as a player, not for his coaching.
Playing career
251 games, 8 for Victoria
3 x Premiership
B&F and Club Captain

Coaching
635 Games (58% win rate overall, 62% at Essendon)
4 x Premiership

Those numbers are in a whole different league to JK.

 

[Kwality]

Oh man, there is come blind, blatant ignorance going on in this thread. Either that or just mindless Hawk-envy and anti-Hawk ideology. The man is the number one reason why we're the club we are today. 13 flags can be traced back to him. Turned us from the biggest easybeats in VFL history to the biggest powerhouse in the league. The single most important figure in the most successful club of the last 6 decades. It is NO coincidence that we have won 13 flags in the same time that Collingwood has won two, since his time. Unquestionably one of the greatest figures in VFL/AFL history.

And some are judging him on some numbers on his wiki page. FFS.

Absolutely deserved Kanga!!

No need to ride on Kanga's back, what sort of fan are you to USE this occasion to justify this rant .... peanut gallery !!!

 

[Kwality]

Not sure about that,

The equivalent would be if Hawthorn could add its U19, Night Flags and Reserve competitions given Cahill ‘won’ them in an inferior competition.

Cahill had a few cracks at the VFL / AFL and failed. That’s why he’s not a legend. Simples

Hiding behind your sense of entitlement, drivel.

 

[Mr Magic]

Dusty is the only one who has a chance IMHO, and he still needs to achieve more. Importantly he has that intangible aura that any Legend should require.

I really don’t think DH is in line for Legend status, even though his record is comparable to John Kennedy Sr. Maybe if he won two more flags at a minimum.

Cotch, Jack and Rance are HoF worthy imho, but fall well short of Legend status.

Agree, if Dimma won another two premierships as coach, by itself, it still would not be enough to be categorised into the legend status. Still anything might and grow develop given Dimma is still a chicken

 

[Mr Magic]

Sheedy deserved his not just for his coaching record either, but as a player too. He was originally inducted into HoF as a player, not for his coaching.
Playing career
251 games, 8 for Victoria
3 x Premiership
B&F and Club Captain

Coaching
635 Games (58% win rate overall, 62% at Essendon)
4 x Premiership

Those numbers are in a whole different league to JK.

Having said that I think it was his marketing and impact on expansion which created an enhanced legacy that tipped his legacy into the more favourable legend status and the record of itself was not necessarily enough from a Aussie Rules perspective

 

[SSSSSS]

The godfather of the modern Hawthorn football club.

Without him there wouldn't be this many posters with sore anuses today.

 

[Jane Doe]

He is 91 years of age and made a great contribution to the game. It’s a shame people on this thread cannot see that

 

[screech]

Haven't read the hof criteria but if i haven't heard of him you're not good enough.
sorry john cahil
no need to dilute the hof anymore by adding state level playes/coaches.

John Kennedy Snr was a state level coach, he never coached in the AFL and was only selected as coach of Victoria once

 

[Hawkk]

Matt Stevic has done more for Hawthorn than Kennedy ever did. Surely he needs to be the next Legend?

Ahh yes, it’s kinda sad that Port never recovered after 2014.

I mean Hawthorn won the next 3 flags after the heartbreak of 2012 but that was the Kennedy credo

 

[CD Xbow]

But some of that was due to zoning and Allen Jeans was handy as well.

Remember Leigh Mathews was on a few of those teams, Hudson and others,

Its not like he was coaching rabbits

We were bunnies when he started. The single most important person in the last 50 years of Hawthorn success. Surprised at the lack of graciousness here, perhaps not so surprised at the ignorance. South Australian's certainly seem to be the most miserable folks around, petty, small minded with a chip the size of Mr Trumps ego on their shoulders.

 

[DaTBird187]

no need to dilute the hof anymore by adding state level playes/coaches.

They just did.

 

[screech]

We were bunnies when he started. The single most important person in the last 50 years of Hawthorn success. Surprised at the lack of graciousness here, perhaps not so surprised at the ignorance.

Yes he is a worthy Hall of Fame inductee.

He is just not in the top 29 all-time greats of the sport.

 

[falcons2]

John Kennedy Snr was a state level coach, he never coached in the AFL and was only selected as coach of Victoria once

What's your point?

 

[Guardian Hawk]

Far out, this site manages to hate on everything doesn't it - and in this case, with such ignorance.

Here are my arguments that suggest he is deserving of Legend status:

1. I'm not sure everyone realises how bad Hawthorn was pre-Kennedy. When he took over as coach, the club had won 10 wooden spoons and multiple winless seasons. In its first 32 seasons, only once had the club won more games than it lost. In its first 30 years, they finished outside the bottom 4 just twice. It took Hawthorn 17 years to beat Collingwood and they still hadn't beaten them at Vic Park when Kennedy became coach 35 years after their entry.

2. Hawthorn made finals for the first time ever in 1957, the same season Kennedy coached his first game (as stand in) and was captain of the club. He, and Brendan Edwards, were changing the fitness regiment of the club significantly and had a big finals win over Carlton with largely the same players that had a winless season a few years prior and had won 4 wooden spoons in the previous decade.

3. Such was his growing influence, that the club pushed him to retire and become full time coach in 1960. This allowed him to go all out with 'Kennedy's commandoes', introducing a circuit style fitness program and using commando style pre-season training. Despite still having a pretty ordinary list, Hawthorn equalled its most ever wins in a season (11/18) in his first year and recorded their first ever win at Vic Park.

4. In 1961, the benefits of the new training style were fully realised. With much the same list that could barely win a game a few years prior, Hawthorn won 14 out of 18 games and were minor premiers with a percentage of 125 (they had never passed 11 wins or 110% before). Despite the change, no one gave Hawthorn any chance in the finals against the Melbourne juggernaut, who had won 5 of the last 6 premierships. Hawthorn went on to beat Melbourne in the second semi and thrash Footscray in the Grand Final.

5. Many in here have said "so what, makes him a Hawthorn Legend" but fail to realise the extent of the innovation and the way it changed the game. This was a "last season Fitzroy" level team beating a "three-peat Lions" level team. That season and the finals in particular basically introduced pressure football, with a huge increase in tackling and a huge increase in turnovers and blind handballing, facilitated by the increased fitness Kennedy introduced and a game plan to utilise it. Edwards (BOG in the GF) left soon afterwards to start a fitness business and pioneered the concept of aerobic fitness in Australia. What we have today (big preseasons, aerobic fitness base, etc) were not part of the game pre-Kennedy. Also, the use of tackling and handballing changed significantly after this season. Not only that but in the 1961 GF, there were only 2 drop punts for the entire game (the game was based on the drop kick at the time). The pressure introduced by this team meant that in the 5-10 years following, the drop punt became the dominant kick used across the league as players no longer had the time to execute the drop kick.

6. Kennedy coached 2 more seasons at Hawthorn, reaching another Grand Final in 1963 (which they lost). His ideas and influence now having spread across the league, Kennedy took a job as a school Prinicipal and left the game.

7. Without Kennedy (and with other teams employing his ideas), Hawthorn missed the finals the following season and fell all the way to a spoon the year after. They won 5 games the year after that before sending out an SOS to Kennedy. He returned in 1967 with the club having notched their 11th spoon and again being the cellar dwellars of the comp. A noted Orator, he began instilling change in culture around 'mindset', 'never give up', etc. The side steadily improved and by 1971, Hawthorn won 19 games with a percentage of over 150, far and away the best season Hawthorn had ever produced.

8. The '71 GF was a violent affair with St Kilda taking a targeted, physical approach. The result was several injuries and concussions to key players and Hawthorn being 20 points down at 3 quarter time having kicked only 5 goals for the day, with Peter Hudson concussed and ineffective. Both sides had been the whipping boys of the comp and had 1 flag each at that stage. After an inspiring address and several big positional changes that were uncommon at the time, Bob Keddie kicked a number of goals from FF in the final term to win the flag. Interesting to note the fortunes of the 2 sides (culturally and otherwise) since that day.

9. Kennedy went on to coach 5 more seasons at the Hawks, concluding in 1976. In his last 3 seasons, Hawthorn were Prelim finalists (74), Grand Finalists (75) and in his last game, premiers against fierce rival and supremely talented North Melbourne who were reigning premiers and had played in 3 GF's in a row.

10. Aside from all of that, he is a bit underrated as a player as well. Kennedy Snr won a Best and Fairest in his first season, another in his second season and another in his third (and is the only player in history from any club to have done so). He went on to captain Victoria and also win a 4th Best and Fairest. He would have featured in Hawthorn's Team of the Century had he not been coach. Whilst it doesn't count for Legend elevation, he also did a lot for the AFL as a Board Member at both Hawthorn and North Melbourne (where he also coached) and as Chairman of the AFL Commission, which included the introduction of the Hall of Fame itself.

I hope the above changes your mind somewhat compared to the 'stats' you look at on paper. He is at least the equivalent of other legends like Roy Cazaly, Bob Pratt, Kevin Sheedy, etc. Yes, there are others deserving but they will get their time too and right now, Kennedy is 91 and close to death so why not? If you still don't believe me, perhaps the opinions of others may sway you given he was the first legend inducted into the Hawthorn Football HOF (ahead of Matthews, Hudson, Dunstall, etc), is in the Sports Australia Hall of Fame and now a Legend in the AFL HOF. Many other Hall of famers describe him as easily their biggest influence including Leigh Matthews, David Parkin, etc, etc.

 

[Mr Magic]

Far out, this site manages to hate on everything doesn't it - and in this case, with such ignorance.

Here are my arguments that suggest he is deserving of Legend status:

1. I'm not sure everyone realises how bad Hawthorn was pre-Kennedy. When he took over as coach, the club had won 10 wooden spoons and multiple winless seasons. In its first 32 seasons, only once had the club won more games than it lost. In its first 30 years, they finished outside the bottom 4 just twice. It took Hawthorn 17 years to beat Collingwood and they still hadn't beaten them at Vic Park when Kennedy became coach 35 years after their entry.

2. Hawthorn made finals for the first time ever in 1957, the same season Kennedy coached his first game (as stand in) and was captain of the club. He, and Brendan Edwards, were changing the fitness regiment of the club significantly and had a big finals win over Carlton with largely the same players that had a winless season a few years prior and had won 4 wooden spoons in the previous decade.

3. Such was his growing influence, that the club pushed him to retire and become full time coach in 1960. This allowed him to go all out with 'Kennedy's commandoes', introducing a circuit style fitness program and using commando style pre-season training. Despite still having a pretty ordinary list, Hawthorn equalled its most ever wins in a season (11/18) in his first year and recorded their first ever win at Vic Park.

4. In 1961, the benefits of the new training style were fully realised. With much the same list that could barely win a game a few years prior, Hawthorn won 14 out of 18 games and were minor premiers with a percentage of 125 (they had never passed 11 wins or 110% before). Despite the change, no one gave Hawthorn any chance in the finals against the Melbourne juggernaut, who had won 5 of the last 6 premierships. Hawthorn went on to beat Melbourne in the second semi and thrash Footscray in the Grand Final.

5. Many in here have said "so what, makes him a Hawthorn Legend" but fail to realise the extent of the innovation and the way it changed the game. This was a "last season Fitzroy" level team beating a "three-peat Lions" level team. That season and the finals in particular basically introduced pressure football, with a huge increase in tackling and a huge increase in turnovers and blind handballing, facilitated by the increased fitness Kennedy introduced and a game plan to utilise it. Edwards (BOG in the GF) left soon afterwards to start a fitness business and pioneered the concept of aerobic fitness in Australia. What we have today (big preseasons, aerobic fitness base, etc) were not part of the game pre-Kennedy. Also, the use of tackling and handballing changed significantly after this season. Not only that but in the 1961 GF, there were only 2 drop punts for the entire game (the game was based on the drop kick at the time). The pressure introduced by this team meant that in the 5-10 years following, the drop punt became the dominant kick used across the league as players no longer had the time to execute the drop kick.

6. Kennedy coached 2 more seasons at Hawthorn, reaching another Grand Final in 1963 (which they lost). His ideas and influence now having spread across the league, Kennedy took a job as a school Prinicipal and left the game.

7. Without Kennedy (and with other teams employing his ideas), Hawthorn missed the finals the following season and fell all the way to a spoon the year after. They won 5 games the year after that before sending out an SOS to Kennedy. He returned in 1967 with the club having notched their 11th spoon and again being the cellar dwellars of the comp. A noted Orator, he began instilling change in culture around 'mindset', 'never give up', etc. The side steadily improved and by 1971, Hawthorn won 19 games with a percentage of over 150, far and away the best season Hawthorn had ever produced.

8. The '71 GF was a violent affair with St Kilda taking a targeted, physical approach. The result was several injuries and concussions to key players and Hawthorn being 20 points down at 3 quarter time having kicked only 5 goals for the day, with Peter Hudson concussed and ineffective. Both sides had been the whipping boys of the comp and had 1 flag each at that stage. After an inspiring address and several big positional changes that were uncommon at the time, Bob Keddie kicked a number of goals from FF in the final term to win the flag. Interesting to note the fortunes of the 2 sides (culturally and otherwise) since that day.

9. Kennedy went on to coach 5 more seasons at the Hawks, concluding in 1976. In his last 3 seasons, Hawthorn were Prelim finalists (74), Grand Finalists (75) and in his last game, premiers against fierce rival and supremely talented North Melbourne who were reigning premiers and had played in 3 GF's in a row.

10. Aside from all of that, he is a bit underrated as a player as well. Kennedy Snr won a Best and Fairest in his first season, another in his second season and another in his third (and is the only player in history from any club to have done so). He went on to captain Victoria and also win a 4th Best and Fairest. He would have featured in Hawthorn's Team of the Century had he not been coach. Whilst it doesn't count for Legend elevation, he also did a lot for the AFL as a Board Member at both Hawthorn and North Melbourne (where he also coached) and as Chairman of the AFL Commission, which included the introduction of the Hall of Fame itself.

I hope the above changes your mind somewhat compared to the 'stats' you look at on paper. He is at least the equivalent of other legends like Roy Cazaly, Bob Pratt, Kevin Sheedy, etc. Yes, there are others deserving but they will get their time too and right now, Kennedy is 91 and close to death so why not? If you still don't believe me, perhaps the opinions of others may sway you given he was the first legend inducted into the Hawthorn Football HOF (ahead of Matthews, Hudson, Dunstall, etc), is in the Sports Australia Hall of Fame and now a Legend in the AFL HOF (well done Kanga!)

Not only that but in the 1961 GF, there were only 2 drop punts for the entire game (the game was based on the drop kick at the time). The pressure introduced by this team meant that in the 5-10 years following, the drop punt became the dominant kick used across the league as players no longer had the time to execute the drop kick.

Are you saying Kennedy killed the drop kick??

Thats heresy

 

[Beandip]

Man, worth popping in here just to see the vitriol pouring out of the PA supporters, absolutely irrelevant club but the fire burns brightly.

 

[Elmer_Judd]

I think the main thrust of the argument (or so it should be) is not that Kanga Kennedy is unworthy, but it was well overdue for a SANFL or WAFL state champion like Russell Ebert or Ken Farmer to be elevated to legend status.

During a year the SANFL is shutdown due to COVID19, an argument could have been made that Rusty (Ebert) should have been elevated as a legend.

I totally agree with the sentiments of VicBias amongst SA and WA fans but also firmly believe JKS was/is a legend in every sense of the term and one of the great football families.

 

[thejockey]

Same deal each year . Person A ( regardless of club ) recieves legend status , cue BF experts criticising the decision .

Rinse and repeat

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

Far out, this site manages to hate on everything doesn't it - and in this case, with such ignorance.

Here are my arguments that suggest he is deserving of Legend status:

1. I'm not sure everyone realises how bad Hawthorn was pre-Kennedy. When he took over as coach, the club had won 10 wooden spoons and multiple winless seasons. In its first 32 seasons, only once had the club won more games than it lost. In its first 30 years, they finished outside the bottom 4 just twice. It took Hawthorn 17 years to beat Collingwood and they still hadn't beaten them at Vic Park when Kennedy became coach 35 years after their entry.

2. Hawthorn made finals for the first time ever in 1957, the same season Kennedy coached his first game (as stand in) and was captain of the club. He, and Brendan Edwards, were changing the fitness regiment of the club significantly and had a big finals win over Carlton with largely the same players that had a winless season a few years prior and had won 4 wooden spoons in the previous decade.

3. Such was his growing influence, that the club pushed him to retire and become full time coach in 1960. This allowed him to go all out with 'Kennedy's commandoes', introducing a circuit style fitness program and using commando style pre-season training. Despite still having a pretty ordinary list, Hawthorn equalled its most ever wins in a season (11/18) in his first year and recorded their first ever win at Vic Park.

4. In 1961, the benefits of the new training style were fully realised. With much the same list that could barely win a game a few years prior, Hawthorn won 14 out of 18 games and were minor premiers with a percentage of 125 (they had never passed 11 wins or 110% before). Despite the change, no one gave Hawthorn any chance in the finals against the Melbourne juggernaut, who had won 5 of the last 6 premierships. Hawthorn went on to beat Melbourne in the second semi and thrash Footscray in the Grand Final.

5. Many in here have said "so what, makes him a Hawthorn Legend" but fail to realise the extent of the innovation and the way it changed the game. This was a "last season Fitzroy" level team beating a "three-peat Lions" level team. That season and the finals in particular basically introduced pressure football, with a huge increase in tackling and a huge increase in turnovers and blind handballing, facilitated by the increased fitness Kennedy introduced and a game plan to utilise it. Edwards (BOG in the GF) left soon afterwards to start a fitness business and pioneered the concept of aerobic fitness in Australia. What we have today (big preseasons, aerobic fitness base, etc) were not part of the game pre-Kennedy. Also, the use of tackling and handballing changed significantly after this season. Not only that but in the 1961 GF, there were only 2 drop punts for the entire game (the game was based on the drop kick at the time). The pressure introduced by this team meant that in the 5-10 years following, the drop punt became the dominant kick used across the league as players no longer had the time to execute the drop kick.

6. Kennedy coached 2 more seasons at Hawthorn, reaching another Grand Final in 1963 (which they lost). His ideas and influence now having spread across the league, Kennedy took a job as a school Prinicipal and left the game.

7. Without Kennedy (and with other teams employing his ideas), Hawthorn missed the finals the following season and fell all the way to a spoon the year after. They won 5 games the year after that before sending out an SOS to Kennedy. He returned in 1967 with the club having notched their 11th spoon and again being the cellar dwellars of the comp. A noted Orator, he began instilling change in culture around 'mindset', 'never give up', etc. The side steadily improved and by 1971, Hawthorn won 19 games with a percentage of over 150, far and away the best season Hawthorn had ever produced.

8. The '71 GF was a violent affair with St Kilda taking a targeted, physical approach. The result was several injuries and concussions to key players and Hawthorn being 20 points down at 3 quarter time having kicked only 5 goals for the day, with Peter Hudson concussed and ineffective. Both sides had been the whipping boys of the comp and had 1 flag each at that stage. After an inspiring address and several big positional changes that were uncommon at the time, Bob Keddie kicked a number of goals from FF in the final term to win the flag. Interesting to note the fortunes of the 2 sides (culturally and otherwise) since that day.

9. Kennedy went on to coach 5 more seasons at the Hawks, concluding in 1976. In his last 3 seasons, Hawthorn were Prelim finalists (74), Grand Finalists (75) and in his last game, premiers against fierce rival and supremely talented North Melbourne who were reigning premiers and had played in 3 GF's in a row.

10. Aside from all of that, he is a bit underrated as a player as well. Kennedy Snr won a Best and Fairest in his first season, another in his second season and another in his third (and is the only player in history from any club to have done so). He went on to captain Victoria and also win a 4th Best and Fairest. He would have featured in Hawthorn's Team of the Century had he not been coach. Whilst it doesn't count for Legend elevation, he also did a lot for the AFL as a Board Member at both Hawthorn and North Melbourne (where he also coached) and as Chairman of the AFL Commission, which included the introduction of the Hall of Fame itself.

I hope the above changes your mind somewhat compared to the 'stats' you look at on paper. He is at least the equivalent of other legends like Roy Cazaly, Bob Pratt, Kevin Sheedy, etc. Yes, there are others deserving but they will get their time too and right now, Kennedy is 91 and close to death so why not? If you still don't believe me, perhaps the opinions of others may sway you given he was the first legend inducted into the Hawthorn Football HOF (ahead of Matthews, Hudson, Dunstall, etc), is in the Sports Australia Hall of Fame and now a Legend in the AFL HOF. Many other Hall of famers describe him as easily their biggest influence including Leigh Matthews, David Parkin, etc, etc.

Hawthorn had 2 winless seasons that I can see, 1928 and 1950.

That big finals win over Carlton in 1957 came 7 years after their last winless season.

I don't think anyone has asked what makes him a Hawthorn legend, in fact many have said he's a Hawthorn legend, just not a league legend.

From 1969 onwards he had access to Leigh Matthews, Don Scott, Peter Crimmins, David Parkin, Peter Hudson, Bob Keddie.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

Same deal each year . Person A ( regardless of club ) recieves legend status , cue BF experts criticising the decision .

Rinse and repeat

Can't remember any criticising Lockett's elevation, some did Sheedy, I was one of them. Some of the earlier ones I would call questionable too.