Toast John Kennedy Snr elevated to Legend Status in the Hall of Fame

[BF Tiger]

Same deal each year . Person A ( regardless of club ) recieves legend status , cue BF experts criticising the decision .

Rinse and repeat

In this instance there are quite a few dissenting voices. Is that the case every year? Probably. I think part of that has to do with the low bar the AFL appear to be setting for a Legend status, while completely ignoring others whose achievements appear to be diminished in the eye of the committee because they played/coached in the WAFL/SANFL/cellar dweller.

I’m not overly familiar with SANFL and WAFL players and coaches, but I keep hearing the same names from fans brought up following those leagues. These are quite possibly fans who followed different sides in the state-based comps but they tend to agree on a few names. And that’s how it should be, and not what has happened in this case.

 

[Gavin Excell]

Far out, this site manages to hate on everything doesn't it - and in this case, with such ignorance.

Here are my arguments that suggest he is deserving of Legend status:

1. I'm not sure everyone realises how bad Hawthorn was pre-Kennedy. When he took over as coach, the club had won 10 wooden spoons and multiple winless seasons. In its first 32 seasons, only once had the club won more games than it lost. In its first 30 years, they finished outside the bottom 4 just twice. It took Hawthorn 17 years to beat Collingwood and they still hadn't beaten them at Vic Park when Kennedy became coach 35 years after their entry.

2. Hawthorn made finals for the first time ever in 1957, the same season Kennedy coached his first game (as stand in) and was captain of the club. He, and Brendan Edwards, were changing the fitness regiment of the club significantly and had a big finals win over Carlton with largely the same players that had a winless season a few years prior and had won 4 wooden spoons in the previous decade.

3. Such was his growing influence, that the club pushed him to retire and become full time coach in 1960. This allowed him to go all out with 'Kennedy's commandoes', introducing a circuit style fitness program and using commando style pre-season training. Despite still having a pretty ordinary list, Hawthorn equalled its most ever wins in a season (11/18) in his first year and recorded their first ever win at Vic Park.

4. In 1961, the benefits of the new training style were fully realised. With much the same list that could barely win a game a few years prior, Hawthorn won 14 out of 18 games and were minor premiers with a percentage of 125 (they had never passed 11 wins or 110% before). Despite the change, no one gave Hawthorn any chance in the finals against the Melbourne juggernaut, who had won 5 of the last 6 premierships. Hawthorn went on to beat Melbourne in the second semi and thrash Footscray in the Grand Final.

5. Many in here have said "so what, makes him a Hawthorn Legend" but fail to realise the extent of the innovation and the way it changed the game. This was a "last season Fitzroy" level team beating a "three-peat Lions" level team. That season and the finals in particular basically introduced pressure football, with a huge increase in tackling and a huge increase in turnovers and blind handballing, facilitated by the increased fitness Kennedy introduced and a game plan to utilise it. Edwards (BOG in the GF) left soon afterwards to start a fitness business and pioneered the concept of aerobic fitness in Australia. What we have today (big preseasons, aerobic fitness base, etc) were not part of the game pre-Kennedy. Also, the use of tackling and handballing changed significantly after this season. Not only that but in the 1961 GF, there were only 2 drop punts for the entire game (the game was based on the drop kick at the time). The pressure introduced by this team meant that in the 5-10 years following, the drop punt became the dominant kick used across the league as players no longer had the time to execute the drop kick.

6. Kennedy coached 2 more seasons at Hawthorn, reaching another Grand Final in 1963 (which they lost). His ideas and influence now having spread across the league, Kennedy took a job as a school Prinicipal and left the game.

7. Without Kennedy (and with other teams employing his ideas), Hawthorn missed the finals the following season and fell all the way to a spoon the year after. They won 5 games the year after that before sending out an SOS to Kennedy. He returned in 1967 with the club having notched their 11th spoon and again being the cellar dwellars of the comp. A noted Orator, he began instilling change in culture around 'mindset', 'never give up', etc. The side steadily improved and by 1971, Hawthorn won 19 games with a percentage of over 150, far and away the best season Hawthorn had ever produced.

8. The '71 GF was a violent affair with St Kilda taking a targeted, physical approach. The result was several injuries and concussions to key players and Hawthorn being 20 points down at 3 quarter time having kicked only 5 goals for the day, with Peter Hudson concussed and ineffective. Both sides had been the whipping boys of the comp and had 1 flag each at that stage. After an inspiring address and several big positional changes that were uncommon at the time, Bob Keddie kicked a number of goals from FF in the final term to win the flag. Interesting to note the fortunes of the 2 sides (culturally and otherwise) since that day.

9. Kennedy went on to coach 5 more seasons at the Hawks, concluding in 1976. In his last 3 seasons, Hawthorn were Prelim finalists (74), Grand Finalists (75) and in his last game, premiers against fierce rival and supremely talented North Melbourne who were reigning premiers and had played in 3 GF's in a row.

10. Aside from all of that, he is a bit underrated as a player as well. Kennedy Snr won a Best and Fairest in his first season, another in his second season and another in his third (and is the only player in history from any club to have done so). He went on to captain Victoria and also win a 4th Best and Fairest. He would have featured in Hawthorn's Team of the Century had he not been coach. Whilst it doesn't count for Legend elevation, he also did a lot for the AFL as a Board Member at both Hawthorn and North Melbourne (where he also coached) and as Chairman of the AFL Commission, which included the introduction of the Hall of Fame itself.

I hope the above changes your mind somewhat compared to the 'stats' you look at on paper. He is at least the equivalent of other legends like Roy Cazaly, Bob Pratt, Kevin Sheedy, etc. Yes, there are others deserving but they will get their time too and right now, Kennedy is 91 and close to death so why not? If you still don't believe me, perhaps the opinions of others may sway you given he was the first legend inducted into the Hawthorn Football HOF (ahead of Matthews, Hudson, Dunstall, etc), is in the Sports Australia Hall of Fame and now a Legend in the AFL HOF. Many other Hall of famers describe him as easily their biggest influence including Leigh Matthews, David Parkin, etc, etc.

That's actually quite fascinating about the 1961 GF and the fact it was predominantly a drop kick game and that within a few years it had become redundant.

I remember as a kid going along to a Geelong match Kardinia Park mid 70s and my father speaking highly of a player (Murray whitcombe?) who would still execute the kick. But certainly by then was a novelty

 

[Pessimistic]

Hes the Bill Shankly of Australian football.

Parkin Jeans and Clarkson are the Bob Paisley and Kenny Dalglish and Klopp (hopefully for Klopp)

 

[Upgrayedd]

Head and shoulders our greatest man ever to walk into the club

 

[Pessimistic]

I think '38 ish was the hawks worst year. Imagine if youd said the Hawks going forward would have way more flags than anyone.

Fair dinkim certifiable

 

[footyfan1978]

David Parkin when asked to describe John Kennedy as a player... "Not very good"....

 

[Pessimistic]

David Parkin when asked to describe John Kennedy as a player... "Not very good"....

Heard that. Sounds like he was in the cameron ling mold

 

[big_e]

Far out, this site manages to hate on everything doesn't it - and in this case, with such ignorance.

Here are my arguments that suggest he is deserving of Legend status:

1. I'm not sure everyone realises how bad Hawthorn was pre-Kennedy. When he took over as coach, the club had won 10 wooden spoons and multiple winless seasons. In its first 32 seasons, only once had the club won more games than it lost. In its first 30 years, they finished outside the bottom 4 just twice. It took Hawthorn 17 years to beat Collingwood and they still hadn't beaten them at Vic Park when Kennedy became coach 35 years after their entry.

2. Hawthorn made finals for the first time ever in 1957, the same season Kennedy coached his first game (as stand in) and was captain of the club. He, and Brendan Edwards, were changing the fitness regiment of the club significantly and had a big finals win over Carlton with largely the same players that had a winless season a few years prior and had won 4 wooden spoons in the previous decade.

3. Such was his growing influence, that the club pushed him to retire and become full time coach in 1960. This allowed him to go all out with 'Kennedy's commandoes', introducing a circuit style fitness program and using commando style pre-season training. Despite still having a pretty ordinary list, Hawthorn equalled its most ever wins in a season (11/18) in his first year and recorded their first ever win at Vic Park.

4. In 1961, the benefits of the new training style were fully realised. With much the same list that could barely win a game a few years prior, Hawthorn won 14 out of 18 games and were minor premiers with a percentage of 125 (they had never passed 11 wins or 110% before). Despite the change, no one gave Hawthorn any chance in the finals against the Melbourne juggernaut, who had won 5 of the last 6 premierships. Hawthorn went on to beat Melbourne in the second semi and thrash Footscray in the Grand Final.

5. Many in here have said "so what, makes him a Hawthorn Legend" but fail to realise the extent of the innovation and the way it changed the game. This was a "last season Fitzroy" level team beating a "three-peat Lions" level team. That season and the finals in particular basically introduced pressure football, with a huge increase in tackling and a huge increase in turnovers and blind handballing, facilitated by the increased fitness Kennedy introduced and a game plan to utilise it. Edwards (BOG in the GF) left soon afterwards to start a fitness business and pioneered the concept of aerobic fitness in Australia. What we have today (big preseasons, aerobic fitness base, etc) were not part of the game pre-Kennedy. Also, the use of tackling and handballing changed significantly after this season. Not only that but in the 1961 GF, there were only 2 drop punts for the entire game (the game was based on the drop kick at the time). The pressure introduced by this team meant that in the 5-10 years following, the drop punt became the dominant kick used across the league as players no longer had the time to execute the drop kick.

6. Kennedy coached 2 more seasons at Hawthorn, reaching another Grand Final in 1963 (which they lost). His ideas and influence now having spread across the league, Kennedy took a job as a school Prinicipal and left the game.

7. Without Kennedy (and with other teams employing his ideas), Hawthorn missed the finals the following season and fell all the way to a spoon the year after. They won 5 games the year after that before sending out an SOS to Kennedy. He returned in 1967 with the club having notched their 11th spoon and again being the cellar dwellars of the comp. A noted Orator, he began instilling change in culture around 'mindset', 'never give up', etc. The side steadily improved and by 1971, Hawthorn won 19 games with a percentage of over 150, far and away the best season Hawthorn had ever produced.

8. The '71 GF was a violent affair with St Kilda taking a targeted, physical approach. The result was several injuries and concussions to key players and Hawthorn being 20 points down at 3 quarter time having kicked only 5 goals for the day, with Peter Hudson concussed and ineffective. Both sides had been the whipping boys of the comp and had 1 flag each at that stage. After an inspiring address and several big positional changes that were uncommon at the time, Bob Keddie kicked a number of goals from FF in the final term to win the flag. Interesting to note the fortunes of the 2 sides (culturally and otherwise) since that day.

9. Kennedy went on to coach 5 more seasons at the Hawks, concluding in 1976. In his last 3 seasons, Hawthorn were Prelim finalists (74), Grand Finalists (75) and in his last game, premiers against fierce rival and supremely talented North Melbourne who were reigning premiers and had played in 3 GF's in a row.

10. Aside from all of that, he is a bit underrated as a player as well. Kennedy Snr won a Best and Fairest in his first season, another in his second season and another in his third (and is the only player in history from any club to have done so). He went on to captain Victoria and also win a 4th Best and Fairest. He would have featured in Hawthorn's Team of the Century had he not been coach. Whilst it doesn't count for Legend elevation, he also did a lot for the AFL as a Board Member at both Hawthorn and North Melbourne (where he also coached) and as Chairman of the AFL Commission, which included the introduction of the Hall of Fame itself.

I hope the above changes your mind somewhat compared to the 'stats' you look at on paper. He is at least the equivalent of other legends like Roy Cazaly, Bob Pratt, Kevin Sheedy, etc. Yes, there are others deserving but they will get their time too and right now, Kennedy is 91 and close to death so why not? If you still don't believe me, perhaps the opinions of others may sway you given he was the first legend inducted into the Hawthorn Football HOF (ahead of Matthews, Hudson, Dunstall, etc), is in the Sports Australia Hall of Fame and now a Legend in the AFL HOF. Many other Hall of famers describe him as easily their biggest influence including Leigh Matthews, David Parkin, etc, etc.

All of which makes him a club legend.

But not a legend of the game.

 

[Guardian Hawk]

Hawthorn had 2 winless seasons that I can see, 1928 and 1950.

That big finals win over Carlton in 1957 came 7 years after their last winless season.

I was trying to paint a picture of both the (lack of ) quality of the Hawthorn list and the culture of the club at the time.

This was the decade prior..

1946 - spoon
1947 - 2nd last
1948 - 2nd last
1949 - spoon
1950 - spoon (winless)
1951 - 2nd last
1952 - 2nd last
1953 - spoon
1954 - bottom 4
1955 - JK appointed captain - 8th
1956 - 7th
1957 - JK stand in coach for 1 game and earliest implementations of his fitness ideas - 3rd and big finals win

I don't think anyone has asked what makes him a Hawthorn legend, in fact many have said he's a Hawthorn legend, just not a league legend.

I addressed that already (particularly with my 5th point). Not only is he an iconic and respected figure of the game league wide, he had a significant influence on the evolution of the game. He played a significant role in introducing an increased focus on fitness, pre-season training styles, player 'camps' akin to the army, circuit training, aerobic fitness, pressure game style, increased use of tackling and the shift from the drop kick to the drop punt.

He also shifted the culture of a club so significantly that they turned from the laughing stock of the competition before his arrival to the most dominant club since, shifting the footy landscape and the power balance therein, permanently.

 

[Boxhead_31]

The entire AFL HoF is a clusterf**k, but this does reek of bias.

Remember it isn't the AFL Hall of Fame, it is meant to be the Australian Rules Hall of Fame

 

[MinerBoy]

All of which makes him a club legend.

But not a legend of the game.

Do you know how I know you're wrong?

Hawthorn's spiritual father John Kennedy snr is now a Hall of Fame Legend

After changing the game and achieving a feat unmatched by any other, Kennedy snr is the 29th Legend of the Hall of Fame

www.afl.com.au

 

[Mr Magic]

Heard that. Sounds like he was in the cameron ling mold

Cameron Ling was a good player though, underrated, good kick for goal to. Worked both ways, not enough do that

 

[Brunswick Trap King]

He is 91 years of age and made a great contribution to the game. It’s a shame people on this thread cannot see that

'He's old so he deserves to be a legend.'

What the * does his age have to do with it? Can't wait until my grandma gets nominated next year.

 

[Elmer_Judd]

Head and shoulders our greatest man ever to walk into the club

I once met Allen Jeans (at an Rec Link Footy match of which he was a great supporter and patron of)
Despite my dislike of all things awful, I was aware I was in the presence of a a football immortal (I have also met/come across Bruce Doull, Ron Barassi and Kevin Bartlett)

HFC Have been bleased to have had two such influenrial and significant figures in Kanga and Yabba (also a Saints man)

I think the foundation for the unqualified success and flags over the past 50 years at Hawthorn can lie at the feet of those two chaps.

Kennedy Snr deserves better than to be involved in a slanging match/shitfight over his eligibility of his legend status..

I would like to think that most Hawthorn fans have the football knowledge nous and respect of non VFP/AFL football to recognize the likes of Ken Farmer and Russell Ebert both should be elevated to legend status in the Australian Football Hall of Fame as well.

But for now let's just celebrate the achievements and legacy of 'The Godfather of Hawthorn' (I recall someone saying that years ago about John Kennedy Senior, can't remember who it was, but it feels right.

 

[Guardian Hawk]

All of which makes him a club legend.

But not a legend of the game.

See my post above and point 5 of my original - Kennedy played a big role in changing several aspects of how the game was played, which remains the case even today.

 

[Mr Magic]

'He's old so he deserves to be a legend.'

What the fu** does his age have to do with it? Can't wait until my grandma gets nominated next year.

Its hard for me because he operated before I was born. My old man is ninety though and used to drop kick.

Still, if he had such an impact why was he not elevated to legend before??

Dunno its a tough one. I can see why some see it as questionable

 

[MinerBoy]

'He's old so he deserves to be a legend.'

What the fu** does his age have to do with it? Can't wait until my grandma gets nominated next year.

Might have missed the point I think.

I'd say the point was that assuming he is a legend but that there are others who perhaps are more deserving and will ultimately also receive the accolade, why not give it to the guy who is 91 and gets to appreciate his induction while alive. The likes of GAS, Carey, Dunstall and perhaps these SA legends will get their time.

 

[footyfan1978]

Heard that. Sounds like he was in the cameron ling mold

More like Ryan Crowley by sounds of it.

 

[Brunswick Trap King]

Might have missed the point I think.

I'd say the point was that assuming he is a legend but that there are others who perhaps are more deserving and will ultimately also receive the accolade, why not give it to the guy who is 91 and gets to appreciate his induction while alive. The likes of GAS, Carey, Dunstall and perhaps these SA legends will get their time.

'And perhaps these SA legends'.

You're not even attempting to hide it anymore lmao

 

[Guardian Hawk]

'He's old so he deserves to be a legend.'

What the fu** does his age have to do with it? Can't wait until my grandma gets nominated next year.

You're not an idiot - no one is arguing his age makes him a legend. The argument in relation to his age is about timing. Many have suggested he is worthy of the HOF but argue, why not such and such first. The answer has been that 'such and such' are also deserving and will get in sometime soon but that maybe Kennedy was chosen this year so he would be alive to see it.

 

[MinerBoy]

'And perhaps these SA legends'.

You're not even attempting to hide it anymore lmao

Nothing to do with it. Don't be precious.

I don't know the champions of the SA or WA states, other than recognition of their names, and I'm not the one to make the decision on their induction.

So it was a general comment of the people I have known and grown up with (Dunstall etc) and perhaps those SA legends (who I can't comment on their contribution to the game).

I'm not attempting to hide anything or pretending to hide anything. Unlike a lot of others attempting to be outraged.

 

[footyfan1978]

All of which makes him a club legend.

But not a legend of the game.

He is a legend for sure.
Well beyond just a club legend.

 

[Hawkk]

'And perhaps these SA legends'.

You're not even attempting to hide it anymore lmao

Not sure John Cahill can lay claim to forcing the introduction of the centre diamond (which became the centre square) but then again who really knows or cares what happened at the Richmond Oval or Prospect Oval anyway.

But I guess in this parallel universe Scotty Hodges was a better FF than Peter Hudson anyway

 

[Ambrosia]

Far out, this site manages to hate on everything doesn't it - and in this case, with such ignorance.

Here are my arguments that suggest he is deserving of Legend status:

1. I'm not sure everyone realises how bad Hawthorn was pre-Kennedy. When he took over as coach, the club had won 10 wooden spoons and multiple winless seasons. In its first 32 seasons, only once had the club won more games than it lost. In its first 30 years, they finished outside the bottom 4 just twice. It took Hawthorn 17 years to beat Collingwood and they still hadn't beaten them at Vic Park when Kennedy became coach 35 years after their entry.

2. Hawthorn made finals for the first time ever in 1957, the same season Kennedy coached his first game (as stand in) and was captain of the club. He, and Brendan Edwards, were changing the fitness regiment of the club significantly and had a big finals win over Carlton with largely the same players that had a winless season a few years prior and had won 4 wooden spoons in the previous decade.

3. Such was his growing influence, that the club pushed him to retire and become full time coach in 1960. This allowed him to go all out with 'Kennedy's commandoes', introducing a circuit style fitness program and using commando style pre-season training. Despite still having a pretty ordinary list, Hawthorn equalled its most ever wins in a season (11/18) in his first year and recorded their first ever win at Vic Park.

4. In 1961, the benefits of the new training style were fully realised. With much the same list that could barely win a game a few years prior, Hawthorn won 14 out of 18 games and were minor premiers with a percentage of 125 (they had never passed 11 wins or 110% before). Despite the change, no one gave Hawthorn any chance in the finals against the Melbourne juggernaut, who had won 5 of the last 6 premierships. Hawthorn went on to beat Melbourne in the second semi and thrash Footscray in the Grand Final.

5. Many in here have said "so what, makes him a Hawthorn Legend" but fail to realise the extent of the innovation and the way it changed the game. This was a "last season Fitzroy" level team beating a "three-peat Lions" level team. That season and the finals in particular basically introduced pressure football, with a huge increase in tackling and a huge increase in turnovers and blind handballing, facilitated by the increased fitness Kennedy introduced and a game plan to utilise it. Edwards (BOG in the GF) left soon afterwards to start a fitness business and pioneered the concept of aerobic fitness in Australia. What we have today (big preseasons, aerobic fitness base, etc) were not part of the game pre-Kennedy. Also, the use of tackling and handballing changed significantly after this season. Not only that but in the 1961 GF, there were only 2 drop punts for the entire game (the game was based on the drop kick at the time). The pressure introduced by this team meant that in the 5-10 years following, the drop punt became the dominant kick used across the league as players no longer had the time to execute the drop kick.

6. Kennedy coached 2 more seasons at Hawthorn, reaching another Grand Final in 1963 (which they lost). His ideas and influence now having spread across the league, Kennedy took a job as a school Prinicipal and left the game.

7. Without Kennedy (and with other teams employing his ideas), Hawthorn missed the finals the following season and fell all the way to a spoon the year after. They won 5 games the year after that before sending out an SOS to Kennedy. He returned in 1967 with the club having notched their 11th spoon and again being the cellar dwellars of the comp. A noted Orator, he began instilling change in culture around 'mindset', 'never give up', etc. The side steadily improved and by 1971, Hawthorn won 19 games with a percentage of over 150, far and away the best season Hawthorn had ever produced.

8. The '71 GF was a violent affair with St Kilda taking a targeted, physical approach. The result was several injuries and concussions to key players and Hawthorn being 20 points down at 3 quarter time having kicked only 5 goals for the day, with Peter Hudson concussed and ineffective. Both sides had been the whipping boys of the comp and had 1 flag each at that stage. After an inspiring address and several big positional changes that were uncommon at the time, Bob Keddie kicked a number of goals from FF in the final term to win the flag. Interesting to note the fortunes of the 2 sides (culturally and otherwise) since that day.

9. Kennedy went on to coach 5 more seasons at the Hawks, concluding in 1976. In his last 3 seasons, Hawthorn were Prelim finalists (74), Grand Finalists (75) and in his last game, premiers against fierce rival and supremely talented North Melbourne who were reigning premiers and had played in 3 GF's in a row.

10. Aside from all of that, he is a bit underrated as a player as well. Kennedy Snr won a Best and Fairest in his first season, another in his second season and another in his third (and is the only player in history from any club to have done so). He went on to captain Victoria and also win a 4th Best and Fairest. He would have featured in Hawthorn's Team of the Century had he not been coach. Whilst it doesn't count for Legend elevation, he also did a lot for the AFL as a Board Member at both Hawthorn and North Melbourne (where he also coached) and as Chairman of the AFL Commission, which included the introduction of the Hall of Fame itself.

I hope the above changes your mind somewhat compared to the 'stats' you look at on paper. He is at least the equivalent of other legends like Roy Cazaly, Bob Pratt, Kevin Sheedy, etc. Yes, there are others deserving but they will get their time too and right now, Kennedy is 91 and close to death so why not? If you still don't believe me, perhaps the opinions of others may sway you given he was the first legend inducted into the Hawthorn Football HOF (ahead of Matthews, Hudson, Dunstall, etc), is in the Sports Australia Hall of Fame and now a Legend in the AFL HOF. Many other Hall of famers describe him as easily their biggest influence including Leigh Matthews, David Parkin, etc, etc.

It just doesn’t quite mesh with what my understanding of what Legend status was supposed to encapsulate.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

I was trying to paint a picture of both the (lack of ) quality of the Hawthorn list and the culture of the club at the time.

This was the decade prior..

1946 - spoon
1947 - 2nd last
1948 - 2nd last
1949 - spoon
1950 - spoon (winless)
1951 - 2nd last
1952 - 2nd last
1953 - spoon
1954 - bottom 4
1955 - JK appointed captain - 8th
1956 - 7th
1957 - JK stand in coach for 1 game and earliest implementations of his fitness ideas - 3rd and big finals win



I addressed that already (particularly with my 5th point). Not only is he an iconic and respected figure of the game league wide, he had a significant influence on the evolution of the game. He played a significant role in introducing an increased focus on fitness, pre-season training styles, player 'camps' akin to the army, circuit training, aerobic fitness, pressure game style, increased use of tackling and the shift from the drop kick to the drop punt.

He also shifted the culture of a club so significantly that they turned from the laughing stock of the competition before his arrival to the most dominant club since, shifting the footy landscape and the power balance therein, permanently.

I think you were trying to paint a picture spread with some mayo.

He shifted the culture of the club so significantly that when he left after his first coaching stint, they went straight back down the ladder again. It seems that culture he implanted really stuck.