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yeah but their playing role had a bigger part in their legend status for most of them.
Hafey is not a legend
Toast John Kennedy Snr elevated to Legend Status in the Hall of Fame
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yeah but their playing role had a bigger part in their legend status for most of them.
Hafey is not a legend
In comparison, the SANFL Premiership coaches of the 1960s and 1970s:
60 - McCarthy (North)
61, 64, 73 - Kerley (West, South, Glenelg)
62, 63, 65 - Williams (Port)
66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 74, 76 - Oatey (Sturt)
71, 72 - Patterson (North)
75, 78 - Hammond (Norwood)
77, 79 - Cahill (Port)
Note the bolds - they are Hall of Fame inductees, but not one Legend. It is another indicator of my current view that a player/coach outside of Victoria needs to have met or exceed the criteria of a Victorian legend to even get inducted, let alone be elevated. Robran being the notable exception.
WAFL fares a little better, with Farmer and Cable both legends in the HOF, but more based on their playing careers in Melbourne
60 - Olliver (West Perth)
61, 62, 63 - Bunton Jnr (Swan Dist.)
64 - Conway (Claremont)
65 - Johnson (East Freo)
66, 67, 68 - Atwell (Perth)
69, 71 - Farmer (West Perth)
70 - Mann (South Freo)
72 - Brown (East Perth)
73 - R. Smith (Subiaco)
74 - Todd (East Freo)
75 - Campbell (West Perth)
76, 77 - Armstrong (Perth)
78 - Cable (East Perth)
79 - B. Smith (East Fremantle)
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Today I learned the bloke that coached Central Districts to the 2000 premiership is responsible for all 9 of their flags.
That would have a much stronger argument as it involved members of the same playing group than this Kennedy and Hawthorn 13 premierships.
Heck the same guy farted in the same room as Clarkson once before Clarkson coached Central to the 2001 premiership so therefore he is also responsible for Hawthorn's 2008, 2013, 2014 and 2015 flags.
Peter Jonas is responsible for 13 flags across 2 clubs and will likely be inducted into the Australian football Hall of fame soon and be elevated to legend status within a decade
That would have a much stronger argument as it involved members of the same playing group than this Kennedy and Hawthorn 13 premierships.
Heck the same guy farted in the same room as Clarkson once before Clarkson coached Central to the 2001 premiership so therefore he is also responsible for Hawthorn's 2008, 2013, 2014 and 2015 flags.
Peter Jonas is responsible for 13 flags across 2 clubs and will likely be inducted into the Australian football Hall of fame soon and be elevated to legend status within a decade
in legend status, one word you hear more than most is influence. Hall of fame started 1996 so theres a 26 year gap from the end of the sixties. So the leaning is that the cohort of hall of fame comittees found leaders one generation before the most influential.
if the people listed above were choosing, would we have a list from the 40s 50s? somehow the shared experience of the leadership of these people is in the discussion, bit not so much from earlier generations because that personal experience is not there
almost all of the legends were made so in 1996. And there are numerical limits on how many can be added now
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thejockey
Club Legend
Calling it a low bar is well off the mark. Is it perfect , absolute not . But nothing like this every really is .
I get the SANFL and WAFL supporters getting their back up . It's not a perfect system and every year there are probably dozens of worthy inductee's who miss out.
But some of the comments on this discussion are very disrespectful to someone who has made an incredible long term contribution to the game.
And it happens every year without fail regardless of the inductees state or club affiliation.
- Mar 25, 2003
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Was Simon Black overlooked for a first available entry into the HOF or was he not eligible last year?
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He was on Survivor at the time and couldn’t attend the ceremony. His induction was held back so he could attend this year. Unfortunately Covid struck which resulted in the ceremony been postponed
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I've mentioned a few times there is definitely a fair amount of bias in the HOF to the 60's and 70's, but I think it's worth pointing out Coleman, Nicholls and Jezza were legends based on their playing career, and their coaching performances were really supplemental to their on-field achievements.
For mine, Barassi is the only person in the game's history who would've made it to legend as either a player or coach.
EDIT: Just checked Hafey isn't a HOF legend. Certainly has a case for his coaching achievements.
I have edited re: Hafey. That surprised me too that he wasn't a legend.
I understand about those with outstanding playing careers, but I was just pointing out the anomaly that is the bias towards a certain era. I just don't think we should have every premiership coach across two decades either in or potentially in the Legend category. Maybe the only Legends from that cohort should be Barassi, Coleman and Nicholls (i.e. make it more exclusive).
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Certainly agree there is a very strong bias in the HOF towards players (and coaches) from the 60's and 70's and not sure it is fully reflective of the game's history.
Maybe if the HOF started earlier, as per say the National Baseball HOF, it would be more evenly spread out. To be fair I guess, there is very little vision (or maybe even none?) of the game from prior to roughly 1950 (?) so it's hard to compare, so from a visual perspective the judges in 1996 probably only had about 20-30 years of football to work with.
But it does seem the exploits you read about the likes of Albert Thurgood (1890's), Vic Thorp (1900's), Dick Lee (1910's), Albert Collier (1920's), Bernie Smith (1950's), Roy Wright (1950's) etc are just going to be somewhat left as footnotes in history. Hard to see them ever dipping back into those time periods for an elevation to legend in the HOF.
Simply due to the ages of the selectors and the natural bias where people believe things were better when they were young.
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No-one criticised Lockett because the only arguement with Lockett is where does he rank with all-time greatest Full Forwards next to Hudson, Coleman and Dunstall? Dunstall only one not a legend already and that is only a matter of time.
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Coleman would've been a legend based on his playing alone.
Lockett and Dunstall achieved in a national competition, the rest of those were in inferior state leagues
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Nice troll effort, but clearly you haven't looked at their careers in much depth or read anything written about them from contemporaries. I'll remember that your football knowledge is that of NRL supporter in future.
There's another thread for discussion and opinions on HOF entries and Legends.
This thread is meant to be a 'toast' for John Kennedy. Does it have to be ruined like most other threads?
Can people take their rants elsewhere, I've even seen whinging about Stevic in here ffs.
This thread is meant to be a 'toast' for John Kennedy. Does it have to be ruined like most other threads?
Can people take their rants elsewhere, I've even seen whinging about Stevic in here ffs.
the pressure will be to go to latter day, and perhaps an era based around the eighties you can see why they put a 10% of hall of fame total numbers, but it’s never going to overcome the perceived 1960s bias
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It is a controversial choice. Just going to have to own that. "Legend" is among the highest honour possible in the game. People are right to wonder whether it is justified when there are other candidates that may never get a nod that appear to deserve it more.
There would not be this controversy if Dunstall was in.
Blame the AFL if people criticise it.
Roy Cazaly is a dodgy inclusion as well but that dates back decades.
I do apologise, and I offer my congratulations to John Kennedy Sr and his family, because I do recognise his contribution to Hawthorn in particular and football in general.
I should use the other thread as suggested, as my issue is more concerning what/who qualifies as a Legend (I think it needs to be more exclusive).
DaTBird187
What D Farke?
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Most South and Western Australian football followers would have far less of an issue overall if the original 1996 inductees as legends didn't have the following breakdown.
South Australia - 0
Western Australia - 1
Victoria - 12
130 years of football and one single player from two states with rich footballing history was chosen. And Polly Farmer was totally chosen because of his Geelong record.
The VFL, SANFL and WAFL only started to show discernible difference in quality in the late 1960s - early 1970s and it wasn't because Victorians suddenly became infinitely better at football. It was because the money was being thrown around and rightly or wrongly the best players from SA and WA started to move across. Players from each state prior to the 1970s have every right to have their records considered equally and as such there are a multitude of players who have been disrespected.
I can't speak for WA as I don't have the depth of knowledge to do so, but take a look at the records of players like Ken Farmer, Russell Ebert, Bobby Quinn, Lindsay Head, Bob Hank and Geof Motley. The playing and coaching records of Jack Oatey, Fos Williams and John Cahill.
There has been 24 years since the original inductions and instead of working towards a better representation of the nation as a whole, SA is up to a whopping two, as is WA. Victoria has double to 24! It has just made the whole situation far, far worse.
I'm sorry for John Kennedy being the catalyst for this, but the justified angst in there and this has just perpetuated it further.
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#headf*cked
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Who is responsible for the severe lack of flags at the Dogs. Someone is likely the most influential in this respect
do they have a reverse HOF?
Hawks were the easy beats for decades with zero premierships. Everyone talks about culture. As a kid from day 1 he single handedly changed the culture of an entire club, at the highest level and during a time when it was tough, a real mans game.
As a kid debuting in 1950 he won four B&F’s in the following 5 years, captain coached the club to its first premiership in 1961. Then after a couple of poor years in the late 60’s he comes back as coach and wins a couple of more. Since then Hawks have won 13 and since his arrival at the club on avg Hawks have won a premiership every 4.6 years and I am sure that there is not one premiership player in the brown & gold that has not been inspired by JK. He is like a Jock McHale to the Pies, Jack Dyer to Tigers, Ron Barrasi to Dees etc.
Listening to Mathews the other day one of the best players ever to play the game, his biggest influence as a kid starting out. JK taught him about what being competitive meant and the importance of team ethos. Then Parkin talking in a similar fashion. When you have these type of blokes talking in this fashion ..... they have a lot more merit in what they say than a bunch of BF buffoons. And then to those talking about players in comps that sat below the VFL reserves, these smaller leagues around the country
!
As a kid debuting in 1950 he won four B&F’s in the following 5 years, captain coached the club to its first premiership in 1961. Then after a couple of poor years in the late 60’s he comes back as coach and wins a couple of more. Since then Hawks have won 13 and since his arrival at the club on avg Hawks have won a premiership every 4.6 years and I am sure that there is not one premiership player in the brown & gold that has not been inspired by JK. He is like a Jock McHale to the Pies, Jack Dyer to Tigers, Ron Barrasi to Dees etc.
Listening to Mathews the other day one of the best players ever to play the game, his biggest influence as a kid starting out. JK taught him about what being competitive meant and the importance of team ethos. Then Parkin talking in a similar fashion. When you have these type of blokes talking in this fashion ..... they have a lot more merit in what they say than a bunch of BF buffoons. And then to those talking about players in comps that sat below the VFL reserves, these smaller leagues around the country
!
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- Jun 28, 2013
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Outrageous Vic biasHawks were the easy beats for decades with zero premierships. Everyone talks about culture. As a kid from day 1 he single handedly changed the culture of an entire club, at the highest level and during a time when it was tough, a real mans game.
As a kid debuting in 1950 he won four B&F’s in the following 5 years, captain coached the club to its first premiership in 1961. Then after a couple of poor years in the late 60’s he comes back as coach and wins a couple of more. Since then Hawks have won 13 and since his arrival at the club on avg Hawks have won a premiership every 4.6 years and I am sure that there is not one premiership player in the brown & gold that has not been inspired by JK. He is like a Jock McHale to the Pies, Jack Dyer to Tigers, Ron Barrasi to Dees etc.
Listening to Mathews the other day one of the best players ever to play the game, his biggest influence as a kid starting out. JK taught him about what being competitive meant and the importance of team ethos. Then Parkin talking in a similar fashion. When you have these type of blokes talking in this fashion ..... they have a lot more merit in what they say than a bunch of BF buffoons. And then to those talking about players in comps that sat below the VFL reserves, these little leagues around the country
Keep going
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