Autopsy Round 9, 2023 : Hawks burnt by Demons

[Strapping Young Lad]

 

[TylerDurden]

Final Siren tells me,

Hawthorn 11 players under 50 games (Dees 4).
Hawthorn 5 players 50-99 games (Dees 6).
Hawthorn 3 players 100-149 games (Dees 4)
Hawthorn 4 players 150+ games (Dees 9).

The divide in experience is at the extremes.

When we’re putting out a side with 11 players in the 50-99 game zone and only 5 players in the under 50 group, I’d expect us to be a different proposition.

Our problem is our experienced players are stinking it up right now. Ironically, the answer is more youth.

 

[Wingnut19]

Probably our biggest issue all year for me (just above our lack of a forward line) is the form of our senior players. That’s what hursts us. Other teams like Collingwood and Geelong still rely on their veteran players to lead from the front and set standards (Dangerfield, Pendlebury, etc) whereas we are having to cover for ours (Sicily excepted).

This is spot on. And to be a fair it was the same with Rough, Poppy, Stratts, Hodgey and even Smiths last year with us. We can’t seem to get consistent, lead from the front footy From our veterans.

 

[OnTheRocks]

Final Siren tells me,

Hawthorn 11 players under 50 games (Dees 4).
Hawthorn 5 players 50-99 games (Dees 6).
Hawthorn 3 players 100-149 games (Dees 4)
Hawthorn 4 players 150+ games (Dees 9).

The divide in experience is at the extremes.

When we’re putting out a side with 11 players in the 50-99 game zone and only 5 players in the under 50 group, I’d expect us to be a different proposition.

This seems lost on those that need scapegoats to make reason why shake their fist at clouds

 

[Billyc]

This is spot on. And to be a fair it was the same with Rough, Poppy, Stratts, Hodgey and even Smiths last year with us. We can’t seem to get consistent, lead from the front footy From our veterans.

Senior team leadership has been terrible since Hodge handed over the captaincy. That has been a major problem and has played a part in the poor development of others. Some of those who took on responsibilities were good leaders but they were cooked by the time they assumed official roles (Roughy, Mcevoy). Others should never have been captain (Stratton) or walked out when the going was tough (Smith, Gunston). Then there were the trade busts (JOM, Wingard).

Sicily to be fair is our best performing captain since Hodge in that he is at least still one of our best players. I think his season has been underrated so far - he has only lost one 1 on 1 contest all year playing on oppositions best forwards in a basket case of a side. That’s pretty remarkable to be honest.

There are some valid concerns about his on field leadership and body language though. I can’t comment off field.

 

[HODGEYROAD]

What's the point of Chad Wingard

20

Chad Wingard

Age

30

Ht

183cm

Wt

80kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

18.3

5star

K

11.0

4star

HB

7.3

5star

M

3.5

4star

T

2.9

4star

G

1.5

5star

No current season stats available

D

10.2

3star

K

4.6

2star

HB

5.6

4star

M

1.6

2star

T

2.0

4star

G

0.2

3star

? averaging 11 touches a game, and kicked 2 snags in 7 matches.

 

[SJT76]

Sis’ disposal was a lot better today, and we look so much more dangerous when that first kick comes off.

Thought Butler played his role, especially with his ground ball pressure. Needs to stay in.

Meek’s best game by a margin, but as others have noted, the next step is to have him and Reeves work in tandem. Him taking a good forward mark was a positive sign in this direction.

And Seamus’ break-out game. I now expect him to keep his opponent goalless, pick up 25 touches and 500+ meters gained every week from now! He clearly gave it everything and looked completely gassed. Well done young man!

Anyone carrying a niggle needs to go get it right, we can’t cover anyone right now.

 

[FB19]

Just watched, that was ok, proud they responded you could see Melbourne had to engage agin early in the third and we kept pace and they are a formidable side. Most players were good to ok. Kosi done, wingard done, CJ as I have said many times is currently a liability and needs to spend extended time at box hill. Weddle great tonight must keep playing. Reeves comes in for kosi, brockman for wingard, scrimshaw for CJ.

 

[The hands of stone]

Firstly - Mitchell was excellent today. He has cemented his spot and hopefully this breakout game gives him some confidence for the rest of the season and beyond.

Great to see Weddle and Mackenzie kick their first goals. Mackenzie is so clean at ground level, he just needs to adjust fully to the pace.

Day, Newcombe, Nash, Meek and Sicily all battled hard and played well.

As for the actual game:

That was a fairly terrible performance for all bar the third quarter. The first half in particular was probably the worst football we've played all season. There were just so many poor, unforced, skill errors and brain farts - in, ironically (or perhaps un-ironically), Frost's milestone game.

It was not unexpected to lose by that margin against Melbourne, who really played hard in the first half (and then relaxed for the rest of the game), but the most disappointing thing is how poor and unorganised our backline has looked.

It is simply unacceptable how poor the entire unit has been this season. Simpson and Mitchell need to do something ASAP.

Right now it's looking like bringing in a novice assistant to immediately take over a fairly inexperienced backline was not a good idea.

Simpson was a great player, and I'm sure he can impart some wisdom and knowledge based on his playing days to the group, but I think we really should have an experienced coach overseeing our backline.

Hopefully it's growing pains, but I'm not convinced. We just appear to be completely out of our depth back there.

I love Wingard, but his body has let him down far too often. He is not up to it right now, so he is playing like he knows his calves will give out at any moment. I hate saying it because I have been a big believer and defender of him, but we can't have both Wingard and Breust in the same side.

Morrison is simply not good enough. Time for him to be dropped, I'd prefer Bramble get a game over him on the wing, though both options are fairly unappealing.

Its a few times now Simpson seems to have popped up in discussion.

Like the young players you probably need to give him and the other coaches some time .
You can't start at ground zero and fix things in one pre season as much as everyone would want that.

We have pretty much started again with the playing group and that translates to the coaches too.

I also wouldnt be holding our 'defensive' coach as being too accountable at this time as to be honest our whole ground/field defense is an issue . Which is actually expected given the mass change.

If we arent seeing improvement say this time next season , yes you would start asking some questions of the coaches.

 

[Lickmesocks]

You build a team around its spine
Right now we have Day in the middle and Lewis up forward.

That’s it

Compare that to all the Top 8 teams and there’s a stark difference

Correct. Our list structure is HORRIBLE. So many flankers. How it got to this without being addressed over the past 3-4 years is nuts. Check this group out-

Key positions
Mitch Lewis
Ramma
Kosi
Jeka
Blanky.

People thinking Will McCabe will be a saviour are kidding themselves. He weighs 75kgs and skinner that DGB was when he came in. Will is a few years away from having a body to compete at AFL.

Can we get a couple of big body’s in free agency to help us develop over the next 3/4 years.

If we can’t we are in for a LOT more pain.

 

[smeltitdeltit]

glass half full approach- really would have expected the group to just go into their shells after that first half but showed a lot Character to battle it out. That third really surprised me. Never really saw any of that from the Demons/GWS/GC when they were in the depths of their builds.

 

[Jazzfan]

What's the point of Chad Wingard ? averaging 11 touches a game, and kicked 2 snags in 7 matches.

Check out his tackle and pressure numbers also mate.

At some point the match committee needs to just rip the band-aid off. This is just ugly now, for both Wingard and the team.

 

[Yardie]

Firstly - Mitchell was excellent today. He has cemented his spot and hopefully this breakout game gives him some confidence for the rest of the season and beyond.

Great to see Weddle and Mackenzie kick their first goals. Mackenzie is so clean at ground level, he just needs to adjust fully to the pace.

Day, Newcombe, Nash, Meek and Sicily all battled hard and played well.

As for the actual game:

That was a fairly terrible performance for all bar the third quarter. The first half in particular was probably the worst football we've played all season. There were just so many poor, unforced, skill errors and brain farts - in, ironically (or perhaps un-ironically), Frost's milestone game.

It was not unexpected to lose by that margin against Melbourne, who really played hard in the first half (and then relaxed for the rest of the game), but the most disappointing thing is how poor and unorganised our backline has looked.

It is simply unacceptable how poor the entire unit has been this season. Simpson and Mitchell need to do something ASAP.

Right now it's looking like bringing in a novice assistant to immediately take over a fairly inexperienced backline was not a good idea.

Simpson was a great player, and I'm sure he can impart some wisdom and knowledge based on his playing days to the group, but I think we really should have an experienced coach overseeing our backline.

Hopefully it's growing pains, but I'm not convinced. We just appear to be completely out of our depth back there.

I love Wingard, but his body has let him down far too often. He is not up to it right now, so he is playing like he knows his calves will give out at any moment. I hate saying it because I have been a big believer and defender of him, but we can't have both Wingard and Breust in the same side.

Morrison is simply not good enough. Time for him to be dropped, I'd prefer Bramble get a game over him on the wing, though both options are fairly unappealing.

Fair summary. I raised the Simpson issue very early but it got removed. However, given where we were at, we should have held Harvey to his contract and the AFL should have said no the move (but they can never stick to their rules). We never should have been put into a position where we were unable to recruit an assistant coach when the moving period was over.

I've been a backer of Harry but he has been poor this season. If we are going to choose between him and Bramble I'd rather we go with Weddle (we got him for this type of role) or CJ (with Weddle moving to CJ's role).

 

[Billyc]

If the senior coach wasn’t a club legend, I am certain a new assistant coach would not be the scapegoat for some poor defensive structures.

 

[Accipiter]

What's the point of Chad Wingard ? averaging 11 touches a game, and kicked 2 snags in 7 matches.

The opportunity for Chad is now ....

He can disclose to the world that his body has failed him and announce his retirement, with his last game being Sir Doug Nicholls round. We can celebrate his culture as decedent of the Kaurna people and he can go out on a high.

That will also open up a spot on our list for upcoming drafts.

 

[Rev08]

Concerning to think that more than a quarter of our list have regressed as footballers this year.

Morrison
Impey
Sicily
Frost
CJ
Moore
Scrimshaw
Bramble
Wingard
Breust
Kosi
Blanck
Jeka

 

[BIGHAWK23]

I thought Kosi was pretty good today. Tried hard and generally impacted contests positively.

No,
Just no

 

[Accipiter]

Correct. Our list structure is HORRIBLE. So many flankers. How it got to this without being addressed over the past 3-4 years is nuts. Check this group out-

Key positions
Mitch Lewis
Ramma
Kosi
Jeka
Blanky.

People thinking Will McCabe will be a saviour are kidding themselves. He weighs 75kgs and skinner that DGB was when he came in. Will is a few years away from having a body to compete at AFL.

Can we get a couple of big body’s in free agency to help us develop over the next 3/4 years.

If we can’t we are in for a LOT more pain.

Well ... Clarko was given the keys with nobody to keep him in check, and he refused to develop the tall timber (Paton over Lewis as an example). I hold him responsible for the degradation in our big man stocks !

 

[Hawk88]

That turnover from Morrison on the 50 line. I’m sure a few posters in here were screaming at their TV.

You cant talk bad about Morrison on this board, you will be belittled and crucified

In all seriousness, go to the game live and watch him run around the field. Has no idea where or what to do and will go anywhere to avoid any form of tackle/hit from any player

16 touches with 2 contested possession. 62% efficiency for someone who plays bruise free football...like cmon

 

[Wingnut19]

Concerning to think that more than a quarter of our list have regressed as footballers this year.

Morrison
Impey
Sicily
Frost
CJ
Moore
Scrimshaw
Bramble
Wingard
Breust
Kosi
Blanck
Jeka

To be fair most here would be happy to have more than half those names off the list next year. Moore, CJ, Scrim, Sicily, Impey the ones to keep moving Fwd .

 

[Roddy]

I know many on here will flatly refuse to be long-sighted about this, but I can see regular glimpses of where we're going. There is method, there is endeavour, it's just the execution that is lacking. Which is understandable with a side so young. I'd say six times out of ten, when we go forward with speed and purpose it comes unstuck. In two years time, when these youngsters have another 40-50 games under their belts, and even more importantly, 40-50 more games together as a unit, that ratio will turn around, and we'll start winning most of these games.

Just watch and be patient....

 

[fairdinks]

What has being soft got to do with not wanting to have him get eaten alive by Gawn/Grundy?

It’s about developing and building belief in a raw commodity. You don’t screw with that if you don’t have to.

Exactly SYL,
Big blokes take time to build body and confidence. Ugle Hagen is just starting to show something in his 3rd season, McDonald still not a finished product in his 3rd and Luke Jackson is now starting to show the star he will be in his 4th. Rama has plenty of time and there is no need to rush because we all think he will be a ripper in time. Wins this year are not the priority TBH

 

[The Jet From Poowong]

I know many on here will flatly refuse to be long-sighted about this, but I can see regular glimpses of where we're going. There is method, there is endeavour, it's just the execution that is lacking. Which is understandable with a side so young. I'd say six times out of ten, when we go forward with speed and purpose it comes unstuck. In two years time, when these youngsters have another 40-50 games under their belts, and even more importantly, 40-50 more games together as a unit, that ration will turn around, and we'll start winning most of these games.

Just watch and be patient....

I agree but does skill level rise with experience. Because the horrid turnovers have a lot to do with skill execution. The ones where there is little to no pressure absolutely kill momentum and by the third instance, sap every drop of confidence across the board. Paralysed to play

 

[Endorphin Machine]

What's the point of Chad Wingard ? averaging 11 touches a game, and kicked 2 snags in 7 matches.

In Mitchells press conference , he referred to Wingards form. He insinuated that getting him into the game by shifting him into the middle is not really beneficial long term , as we are looking to solidify the Day / Worpel / Newcombe / Nash midfield. Itll be backed up by McKenzie/ Moore / Ward. So hes kinda stick with slim pickings as a forward. Wont be surprised to see him depart at the end of the year, wouldnt begrudge him.
I think of the Burton deal, letting Brad Hill go , totally ******* up with Rioli etc - we really stepped on banana peels to get where we are.

 

[BIGHAWK23]

Besides the fact that most of those other players already have positions on the ground?

Morrison has a position
He isn’t good at it at all currently
He can’t hit up players consistently
He doesn’t role back into defence and distribute in a meaningful way

 

[The hands of stone]

If the senior coach wasn’t a club legend, I am certain a new assistant coach would not be the scapegoat for some poor defensive structures.

People are being critical of both from what I see.

Pointng the finger at either or any of the coaches at this stage for that matter, shows a lack of patience and any understanding of coaching and performance in professional sport.