Preview Changes & Pre-match Discussion - Round 6 vs. Hawthorn - Giants Stadium (NSW), 7:50pm Fri 10/07

[LuckyLee]

There's obviously a lot going on at the moment, but I think we need to address the biggest concerns right now.

1. We clearly cannot play wet weather football. We have played in 3 wet (or frosty) games for 2 losses and a draw. When conditions are good, we have won both games comfortably. We are a high possession team, that clearly cannot adjust for conditions. If finals are in October, we should get some nicer weather...but for now we need to be able to adapt our game-style for all conditions if we want to get to the finals.

2. We have not worked out what to do with Elliott, De Goey, Stephenson and WHE. All 4 want to play from the goal-square. Stephenson has the role right now and is the only one hitting the scoreboard, but his impact on games seems to fluctuate depending on how the side is going. When we are up and running, he gets involved. When we aren't playing well, he goes quiet. Clearly, the experiment with using De Goey and Elliott rotating through the middle isn't working. Both want to be forwards. WHE just looks completely lost. He probably played his best footy in patches last week off half back or up on a wing. I'd be considering using De Goey as our CHF and Stephenson as our FF. Elliott needs to learn to play more of a small forward pocket role. He isn't a mid.

3. Passengers. There are some good players getting games at the moment purely based on their name and credits in the bank. We aren't getting anything out of Elliott, WHE, Phillips, Tyler or Cal Brown, Cox and Wills. Mihocek has also been very quiet apart from a few patches where he gets involved.

I'd definitely be making some changes this week.

I'd love to see Sier get a crack in the place of Wills. Rupert has been very quiet for 3 weeks now. He was ok against St.Kilda and had an impact, but went missing over the following 2 games.

I think having De Goey out is a huge loss, but at least lessens the competition for the forward roles. Perhaps it will give Elliott an opportunity to work with Stephenson to consolidate those roles. I'd actually be looking at bringing in Rantall for debut as a more pure mid. Perhaps a bit of youth will add some spark.

I also think dropping Noble for Varcoe was a mistake. I thought Noble was going ok.

Finally, I'd strongly consider dropping WHE for Broomhead. Again, WHE has no real role in the side at the moment. At least Broomhead can play as a more traditional crumber.

I am giving Cox one last reprieve. He has had a very limited preparation, and has played in 2 wet weather games in the past 2 weeks which are not his ideal conditions. But he is on his last chance. After this, I'd be strongly considering Kelly or Reid in his place.

The wet weather thing is a strange development. It used to be real strength, especially in the early 2000's. Back then, we struggled to play well in the dry! I can still remember Mark McGough destroying Essendon on ANZAC Day in 2002 and thinking "gee, how good is this kid gonna be?" He went from rooster to feather-duster within a matter of weeks! How things have changed!

 

[surfer1]

Ahhh good to see an ex Ararat boy on here, when did ya move on from the The Rat?

I too moved onto greener pastures, over in WA now

In 1963!!! We had a big fruit and grocery shop opposite courthouse. I went to school with Barry Price he is a few years older.

 

[surfer1]

Pardon my ignorance, with the Victorian lockdown how does it place Pies players, ie DeGoey who have not travelled to Sydney?

 

[unplugged]

Pardon my ignorance, with the Victorian lockdown how does it place Pies players, ie DeGoey who have not travelled to Sydney?

I think it's the same as it always has been; given WA exemption to enter the state provided they undertake mandatory quarantine for 14 days.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Two low-possession, high-pressure players in the forward line who rely on ground balls. What’s silly about it?

My bad. Didnt realise you were discussing in context of both of them being on the ground together this week. No, that wouldnt be good.

I thought you were making a general comment about their attributes, , apologies.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Pardon my ignorance, with the Victorian lockdown how does it place Pies players, ie DeGoey who have not travelled to Sydney?

DeGoey and Sidebottom are going straight to Perth and are possibluy already there. Not sure about other players, depends on the scratch match situation.

 

[Carringbush2010]

I guess what I’m saying is, make the structure fit the players you have, not the other way around, and if you don’t like the structure that limits you to, address that at the trade table or (less ideally) the draft.

The flaw here though is that we don't have the talent to go all the way. The structure set we have is based on being system reliant not personnel reliant. Key for us because we don't the talent to rely on is basic fundamental football in a system.

If we just purely structure our personnel in the best position for that player then we don't have the talent of a wc or giants.

It's clear the Goey won't play, my guess is that the committee will stick phat and replace him only.

 

[The Royal Sampler]

The flaw here though is that we don't have the talent to go all the way. The structure set we have is based on being system reliant not personnel reliant. Key for us because we don't the talent to rely on is basic fundamental football in a system.

If we just purely structure our personnel in the best position for that player then we don't have the talent of a wc or giants.

That’s not a flaw at all. As I said, play your talent where they are most likely to succeed, i.e. make your structure fit your talent. If you have a structure you would like to play to, over time you draft or trade in the talent that fits your structure, don’t force people to play in a role they are unsuited to from day 1. You are not going to win a flag playing your talent in the wrong position anyway, so it’s a moot point.

 

[hellfire]

Would love to see Maynard play in the midfield for a game he is exactly what we need in there , Wills can bugger off give Quaynor a go down back, Cox should go back to scratch matches seems cooked,Varcoe also looks done.Kelly in , give the young man a go.
Kelly, Quaynor , Noble ,Rantall..in
Cox, Varcoe ,Degoey Wills..out.

I think he would be brilliant in the middle, but the opportunity cost is the concern. How much will we weaken the defence if we move our best 1:1 player after already losing Howe?

 

[unplugged]

Anyone lucky enough to be going to this game?

 

[Kappa]

If Varcoe gets another game then the selection committee is incompetent.

Noble and Quaynor are both better and younger

 

[Carringbush2010]

That’s not a flaw at all. As I said, play your talent where they are most likely to succeed, i.e. make your structure fit your talent. If you have a structure you would like to play to, over time you draft or trade in the talent that fits your structure, don’t force people to play in a role they are unsuited to from day 1. You are not going to win a flag playing your talent in the wrong position anyway, so it’s a moot point.

Since the Buckley inception, the club has recruited 'types' to fit in his vision - 2018 we saw that vision. So I'd argue right now the committee actually do have an intent to play players in their best position for that player that best suits the teams style of play.

But it's not working, because we aren't sticking to that desired game plan, which is effort and basic fundamental based not star skill based. The effort required to play that desired plan is more so than any other because it requires outnumbering at the contest and on the outside. So you can't consistently execute it week in week out, we see qtrs here and halves there - not full games or rarely. My guess is it is too physically taxing to play that way all the time.

IF we are to pull it off this year A/ We have to get there first and B/ We have to execute that desired style perfectly for the whole game.

 

[Big Bryza]

There's obviously a lot going on at the moment, but I think we need to address the biggest concerns right now.

1. We clearly cannot play wet weather football. We have played in 3 wet (or frosty) games for 2 losses and a draw. When conditions are good, we have won both games comfortably. We are a high possession team, that clearly cannot adjust for conditions. If finals are in October, we should get some nicer weather...but for now we need to be able to adapt our game-style for all conditions if we want to get to the finals.

2. We have not worked out what to do with Elliott, De Goey, Stephenson and WHE. All 4 want to play from the goal-square. Stephenson has the role right now and is the only one hitting the scoreboard, but his impact on games seems to fluctuate depending on how the side is going. When we are up and running, he gets involved. When we aren't playing well, he goes quiet. Clearly, the experiment with using De Goey and Elliott rotating through the middle isn't working. Both want to be forwards. WHE just looks completely lost. He probably played his best footy in patches last week off half back or up on a wing. I'd be considering using De Goey as our CHF and Stephenson as our FF. Elliott needs to learn to play more of a small forward pocket role. He isn't a mid.

3. Passengers. There are some good players getting games at the moment purely based on their name and credits in the bank. We aren't getting anything out of Elliott, WHE, Phillips, Tyler or Cal Brown, Cox and Wills. Mihocek has also been very quiet apart from a few patches where he gets involved.

I'd definitely be making some changes this week.

I'd love to see Sier get a crack in the place of Wills. Rupert has been very quiet for 3 weeks now. He was ok against St.Kilda and had an impact, but went missing over the following 2 games.

I think having De Goey out is a huge loss, but at least lessens the competition for the forward roles. Perhaps it will give Elliott an opportunity to work with Stephenson to consolidate those roles. I'd actually be looking at bringing in Rantall for debut as a more pure mid. Perhaps a bit of youth will add some spark.

I also think dropping Noble for Varcoe was a mistake. I thought Noble was going ok.

Finally, I'd strongly consider dropping WHE for Broomhead. Again, WHE has no real role in the side at the moment. At least Broomhead can play as a more traditional crumber.

I am giving Cox one last reprieve. He has had a very limited preparation, and has played in 2 wet weather games in the past 2 weeks which are not his ideal conditions. But he is on his last chance. After this, I'd be strongly considering Kelly or Reid in his place.

Great summation.

I really want Cox to prove himself again and I believe he's a lot better than what he's shown so far this season. The drier conditions in Sydney and Perth will be of benefit to him.

It's going to be fascinating though as we've seen sides like Hawthorn in the past make him look like a witches hat. He's very reliant as are most tall forward on slick ball movement. He needs the ability to run and jump at the footy. When our transition is slow Mason generally gets caught in a wrestle with his opponent and is all at sea.

Would love to see some youthful additions like IQ and Rantall included over the next few weeks.

Lastly, I would desperately love Sier to train his butt off and get another crack at senior footy. Ability wise he's an upgrade on the Rupe.

 

[Jen2310]

Anyone lucky enough to be going to this game?

I'm in the process of changing my identity and sneaking into NSW as we speak lol

 

[DerekZoolander]

How do I get tickets for the game? Can't find on AFL website and last I heard only Giants Gold Members can get tickets to the ground

BTW, I'm on the good side of the border these days

 

[Big Bryza]

Very natural goal kicker is young Daic's, obviously comes with the surname, but he looks at home on the wing and his class, poise and creativity is something we certainly need further up the ground. While I agree Varcoe is on his last legs sadly I don't think we have any other forwards that you could look and trust to hit pack at pace and also put pressure on the defender.

I mentioned him in another thread but what about Atu, how's he progressing? By all reports he has a bit of pace and knows how to lay a tackle. Yeah he'd be a bit raw and slight of frame, but surely no more than Jarrod Cameron or the Aarts kid Richmond debuted on the weekend. If he can put some forward pressure on and add some pace and crumbing ability to our pretty stagnant forward line I can only see that as a win. Played a Marsh Series game from memory?

The only thing with that Aarts kid is that he's 25/26 years old. Been in the Tigers VFL system for a number of years.

 

[jackcass]

You're right. I was thinking of Lewis and got him confused with Mitchell. My bad, carry on.

Given his name is Mitchell Lewis and posters tendencies to shuffle 1st names, surnames, and nicknames, that's completely understandable.

 

[jackcass]

DeGoey and Sidebottom are going straight to Perth and are possibluy already there. Not sure about other players, depends on the scratch match situation.

I'd assume they'd align their flight to Perth with the teams flights from Sydney to Perth so their quarantines are the same. If anything, you'd want JDG and Sidey there 1st to avoid any lag in commencement of their quarantine.

 

[Pistol Night]

I'd assume they'd align their flight to Perth with the teams flights from Sydney to Perth so their quarantines are the same. If anything, you'd want JDG and Sidey there 1st to avoid any lag in commencement of their quarantine.

2 of the biggest pissheads at the club alone in Perth for a week. What could go wrong

 

[Johno9911]

Might

The only thing with that Aarts kid is that he's 25/26 years old. Been in the Tigers VFL system for a number of years.

Might explain why I thought he looked a bit older. However he still looked quite slight out there against a lot of bigger and more experienced bodies, but yet he played well, laid some tackles and put pressure on the ball carrier. Really that's the role required for a small forward especially in their first few AFL games, play your role and do the things you can do well, the rest can come later.

 

[mike123]

The media will be all over this trying to uncover information.

Did you say he played his last game for us back in 2017?

 

[mike123]

I also think dropping Noble for Varcoe was a mistake. I thought Noble was going ok.

Dropping him for Varcoe was a mistake because Varcoe’s shoulders are more cooked than I thought.

But I’d still have Noble in the passengers group.

 

[Anzacday]

Another opinion...

Jordan De Goey had not been having a good year on the field before a criminal charge was laid.
Steele Sidebottom had been having a very good and bad year on the field before he ended up in the back of a divvy van, semi-naked, with a belly full of whisky and bad decisions.
This week neither De Goey nor Sidebottom will be in Sydney playing against Hawthorn, a team that beats Collingwood for fun, winning nine of their last 10 going back to 2013.
Collingwood’s forward line has been spluttering for a year and it has not been made more functional by the return of Mason Cox, who has barely played a good game since the best of his career in the 2018 prelim final.

Cox as a target for the club’s problems is as obvious, as he is a target on the field given his size, but he alone should not overshadow the Pies’ worrying issues.
The club had brought Darcy Cameron in for two games before switching him out for Cox. Cameron didn’t do enough as a forward. Cox has done less.
Cameron has only played two AFL games so there is scope for him to improve and he could come back in. But young Will Kelly – son of premiership player Ned who was drafted as a key back but has been developed was a key forward – should get his chance. He kicked three in the seconds again on Friday and has strung several good games together.
The effect of picking him would be to ask Grundy to essentially ruck solo but with shorter quarters that’s conceivable. Grundy’s impact and his connection with his midfield remains a frustration at Collingwood for they have lost the ability to maximise his impact.

Again on Friday, as it was the week before, his hit-out dominance did not translate to clearances. Opposition mids again seemed to have a better understanding of where they should be for Grundy than Collingwood’s did. When he hit it to his feet they were there, when he belted to space the Dons had a defensive sweeper.
Pendlebury has been playing as well as any time in his career and Taylor Adams has been excellent yet the midfield has struggled for clearances and ball movement. Adam Treloar was in his first game for a long time and lacked touch.
Brayden Sier has been ridden hard to earn trust, respect and his place back in the side after his amusingly dumb Phil Inn basketball moment last year (just another in the conga line of Collingwood’s inventively stupid off-field issues), but surely he must return. They cannot play him and Rupert Wills in the same team for issues of leg speed and spread but Sier is more creative with scope to be better.
Tom Phillips was moved from a wing to the half-forward this year and he has not adjusted. His best work was running 400s up and down a wing and linking play. He is not a natural goalkicker and has become anonymous.
Josh Daicos has been a find on a wing because he is an elite user of the ball if not yet a high possession earner and Chris Mayne is reliably effective on the other wing. But Phillips is wasted as a forward so one needs to move.

The forwards have been cruelled by stultifying ball movement, which is far too handball-heavy. They are unable to adapt to wet weather.
Will Hoskin-Elliott looks nothing on the player of 2018 and could be considered an option to switch to defence where Jeremy Howe’s absence is having a profound effect.
The injury to Howe has denied Collingwood the option of moving Darcy Moore forward again. Moore as a mobile forward and second ruck to Grundy could be extremely dangerous but would be unlikely – if it ever was likely the match committee would do it – with Howe out of the team.

Four points: Pies' season runs off rails

Flying after round three, Collingwood's season has suddenly been rocked by off-field incidents and on-field struggles.

www.theage.com.au

 

[whiskeytown]

Another opinion...

Jordan De Goey had not been having a good year on the field before a criminal charge was laid.
Steele Sidebottom had been having a very good and bad year on the field before he ended up in the back of a divvy van, semi-naked, with a belly full of whisky and bad decisions.
This week neither De Goey nor Sidebottom will be in Sydney playing against Hawthorn, a team that beats Collingwood for fun, winning nine of their last 10 going back to 2013.
Collingwood’s forward line has been spluttering for a year and it has not been made more functional by the return of Mason Cox, who has barely played a good game since the best of his career in the 2018 prelim final.

Cox as a target for the club’s problems is as obvious, as he is a target on the field given his size, but he alone should not overshadow the Pies’ worrying issues.
The club had brought Darcy Cameron in for two games before switching him out for Cox. Cameron didn’t do enough as a forward. Cox has done less.
Cameron has only played two AFL games so there is scope for him to improve and he could come back in. But young Will Kelly – son of premiership player Ned who was drafted as a key back but has been developed was a key forward – should get his chance. He kicked three in the seconds again on Friday and has strung several good games together.
The effect of picking him would be to ask Grundy to essentially ruck solo but with shorter quarters that’s conceivable. Grundy’s impact and his connection with his midfield remains a frustration at Collingwood for they have lost the ability to maximise his impact.

Again on Friday, as it was the week before, his hit-out dominance did not translate to clearances. Opposition mids again seemed to have a better understanding of where they should be for Grundy than Collingwood’s did. When he hit it to his feet they were there, when he belted to space the Dons had a defensive sweeper.
Pendlebury has been playing as well as any time in his career and Taylor Adams has been excellent yet the midfield has struggled for clearances and ball movement. Adam Treloar was in his first game for a long time and lacked touch.
Brayden Sier has been ridden hard to earn trust, respect and his place back in the side after his amusingly dumb Phil Inn basketball moment last year (just another in the conga line of Collingwood’s inventively stupid off-field issues), but surely he must return. They cannot play him and Rupert Wills in the same team for issues of leg speed and spread but Sier is more creative with scope to be better.
Tom Phillips was moved from a wing to the half-forward this year and he has not adjusted. His best work was running 400s up and down a wing and linking play. He is not a natural goalkicker and has become anonymous.
Josh Daicos has been a find on a wing because he is an elite user of the ball if not yet a high possession earner and Chris Mayne is reliably effective on the other wing. But Phillips is wasted as a forward so one needs to move.

The forwards have been cruelled by stultifying ball movement, which is far too handball-heavy. They are unable to adapt to wet weather.
Will Hoskin-Elliott looks nothing on the player of 2018 and could be considered an option to switch to defence where Jeremy Howe’s absence is having a profound effect.
The injury to Howe has denied Collingwood the option of moving Darcy Moore forward again. Moore as a mobile forward and second ruck to Grundy could be extremely dangerous but would be unlikely – if it ever was likely the match committee would do it – with Howe out of the team.

Four points: Pies' season runs off rails

Flying after round three, Collingwood's season has suddenly been rocked by off-field incidents and on-field struggles.

www.theage.com.au

Mihocek can play relief ruck. Not ideal... on the short side for that role... but a big body and has done it before, so him rucking for collectively 8- 10min a game shouldn’t hurt.

So I think 190cm + guys in Mihocek, Kelly and (when available) De Goey plus the smalls will work fine for a forward line setup

 

[Pistol Night]

Another opinion...

Jordan De Goey had not been having a good year on the field before a criminal charge was laid.
Steele Sidebottom had been having a very good and bad year on the field before he ended up in the back of a divvy van, semi-naked, with a belly full of whisky and bad decisions.
This week neither De Goey nor Sidebottom will be in Sydney playing against Hawthorn, a team that beats Collingwood for fun, winning nine of their last 10 going back to 2013.
Collingwood’s forward line has been spluttering for a year and it has not been made more functional by the return of Mason Cox, who has barely played a good game since the best of his career in the 2018 prelim final.

Cox as a target for the club’s problems is as obvious, as he is a target on the field given his size, but he alone should not overshadow the Pies’ worrying issues.
The club had brought Darcy Cameron in for two games before switching him out for Cox. Cameron didn’t do enough as a forward. Cox has done less.
Cameron has only played two AFL games so there is scope for him to improve and he could come back in. But young Will Kelly – son of premiership player Ned who was drafted as a key back but has been developed was a key forward – should get his chance. He kicked three in the seconds again on Friday and has strung several good games together.
The effect of picking him would be to ask Grundy to essentially ruck solo but with shorter quarters that’s conceivable. Grundy’s impact and his connection with his midfield remains a frustration at Collingwood for they have lost the ability to maximise his impact.

Again on Friday, as it was the week before, his hit-out dominance did not translate to clearances. Opposition mids again seemed to have a better understanding of where they should be for Grundy than Collingwood’s did. When he hit it to his feet they were there, when he belted to space the Dons had a defensive sweeper.
Pendlebury has been playing as well as any time in his career and Taylor Adams has been excellent yet the midfield has struggled for clearances and ball movement. Adam Treloar was in his first game for a long time and lacked touch.
Brayden Sier has been ridden hard to earn trust, respect and his place back in the side after his amusingly dumb Phil Inn basketball moment last year (just another in the conga line of Collingwood’s inventively stupid off-field issues), but surely he must return. They cannot play him and Rupert Wills in the same team for issues of leg speed and spread but Sier is more creative with scope to be better.
Tom Phillips was moved from a wing to the half-forward this year and he has not adjusted. His best work was running 400s up and down a wing and linking play. He is not a natural goalkicker and has become anonymous.
Josh Daicos has been a find on a wing because he is an elite user of the ball if not yet a high possession earner and Chris Mayne is reliably effective on the other wing. But Phillips is wasted as a forward so one needs to move.

The forwards have been cruelled by stultifying ball movement, which is far too handball-heavy. They are unable to adapt to wet weather.
Will Hoskin-Elliott looks nothing on the player of 2018 and could be considered an option to switch to defence where Jeremy Howe’s absence is having a profound effect.
The injury to Howe has denied Collingwood the option of moving Darcy Moore forward again. Moore as a mobile forward and second ruck to Grundy could be extremely dangerous but would be unlikely – if it ever was likely the match committee would do it – with Howe out of the team.

Four points: Pies' season runs off rails

Flying after round three, Collingwood's season has suddenly been rocked by off-field incidents and on-field struggles.

www.theage.com.au

Hawthorn could play with 18 blokes in wheelchairs Friday night and still win. Pies are mentally shot by them. That 2011 prelim really inspired the campaigners to torment us for the next decade.