Strategy Changes & Pre-match Discussion - Round 17 vs. Western Bulldogs, Marvel Friday 07/07, 7:50pm

[DopeMaster]

It might sound silly considering how many great players we have, but given the spot he can fill, McStay finding consistency and playing to or above his level could be the thing that wins us the whole thing. Get him in, give him time to find form, let's see how it works sooner rather than later.

One of my pet hates is opposition defensive intercept marks. Drives me nuts, and I can invisige a situation in a final where the pressure is up and our movement becomes stifled and we start bombing it in, a bit like the Melbourne game. And I'm looking at guys like Andrews, Payne, Lever, May and Aliir and seeing great intercept players that could exploit us. McStay providing another target and at least crashing packs and halving the long balls could nullify just about our last weakness if we're fully fit. Absolutely massive if he can find form. Just play him.

Agree. We need a pack-breaker. McStay it is, given Krueger can’t stay on the park.

They’re the only 2 on our list that provide that function.

 

[Reg Brundy]

Agree. We need a pack-breaker. McStay it is, given Krueger can’t stay on the park.

They’re the only 2 on our list that provide that function.

McStay has a great tank too, if he can't break them he'll wear em down.

 

[3rdMan]

Bro, Frampton played 3 roles on the weekend and kicked 2 goals. Mcstay has no history as a goal kicker whatsoever. McStay has no leading patterns at all, he is just a plodder. He can't get separation and he sure as hell can't take a pack mark. you can't use data as an example for McStay because there is no data to back him up.

The role we're talking about is forward and Frampton kicked 1 goal from a free kick.

There is plenty of Brisbane data to backup McStay, that's the reason we got him. He's elite at getting to contests and at least halving them, something we badly need alongside Mihocek. Neither Cox or Frampton are physically capable. You're being narrow in only looking at goals, that's clearly not the prime reason McStay was brought in.

Do you want me to use Frampton's forward history at other clubs?

 

[adammania9]

Going to copy and paste a post I made earlier this year about McStay, about the way he plays and the way he links up with teammates.



McStay was piled into by critics for his performance on the night of the Semi-Final. It's interesting going back and skipping through the highlights and showing how much impact he had in a monumental win for his club, despite not getting any real attention for it

1:20 professional 1on1 win against the great Steven May

1

Steven May

Age

32

Ht

193cm

Wt

101kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

14.7

4star

K

10.5

4star

HB

4.2

3star

M

5.1

5star

T

1.5

3star

MG

307.3

4star

D

15.5

4star

K

12.1

5star

HB

3.4

2star

M

3.4

3star

T

0.5

1star

MG

378.4

5star

D

12.4

4star

K

8.8

4star

HB

3.6

3star

M

3.2

4star

T

1.8

4star

, clean collect, delivers a dart onto Hipwood's chest who then kicks the goal
2:10 throws May off his run at the football, then takes out Rivers allowing the crumbing Ah Chee to run into an open goal
2:32 creative knock on to Hipwood to set him up for relatively simple goal, however Hipwood can't capitalise
3:14 gets up to half forward and presents and marks, delivers a perfect pass to Hipwood who goals
4:27 McStay tackles Rivers 20m out from goal and wins a holding the ball free, which Hipwood takes advantage of and goals
6:50 forces Lever to panic, then wraps him up and wins holding the ball. Following a 50m penalty he kicks the sealing goal.

McStay also kicked a 2nd goal (first chronologically) at the beginning of the last quarter as a result of being held, which wasn't included in the highlights package.

McStay may not be Cameron or Lynch but what he displays is great football nous and an inspiring ability to link up with teammates and bring them into the game. I remember on the night thinking Hipwood played a marvellous game but funnily enough, it looks like McStay presented Hipwood with just about all of his opportunities to kick goals. That's what I'm looking forward to McStay bringing to Collingwood - smart, selfless footy and bringing other forwards into the game. I was a critic when we were first linked but upon watching more of the way he plays - I've become a fan. Can't wait to watch him for us.

 

[adammania9]

Anyway on Cameron, it seemed to me for most of the night when on the ground he ran around with Witts and made sure the big man had little to no influence on the game, which he did. I'll watch closely on Friday night but I reckon he'll go with English for most of the game too, while Cox and Frampton add the needed height and marking power around the ground.

 

[3rdMan]

We absolutely torched GC on transition, so didn't need tall forwards in that game.

But when we did have to bomb it in, the ruck/forwards didn't look like the answer to me - with Ballard picking off intercepts. I don't think Billy even got near a marking ball up forward. I think one of Cox/Cameron/Frampton will make way for McStay. If it was up to me it'd be Cameron out, as I think they're all about the same as rucks - with Cox comfortably the best forward and Frampton having the defensive flexibility, but it's not up to me.

Agreed. You wouldn't make too many selection decisions based only on that game. Not sure a team has defended the corridor worse against us and that makes the game easy. Frampton and Murphy were able to run free through the corridor.

The games we need two KPFs are those where our ball movement is restricted and we're forced into long kicks or need talls hitting up on leads up the ground.

 

[manicpie]

The role we're talking about is forward and Frampton kicked 1 goal from a free kick.

There is plenty of Brisbane data to backup McStay, that's the reason we got him. He's elite at getting to contests and at least halving them, something we badly need alongside Mihocek. Neither Cox or Frampton are physically capable. You're being narrow in only looking at goals, that's clearly not the prime reason McStay was brought in.

Do you want me to use Frampton's forward history at other clubs?

I never said Frampton should be permanent FF. As far as flexability goes, frampton is much more valuable. There is no data to back up anything McStay has done. Checkers has been in career best form without McStay and Danaher and hipwood are having their best seasons for years. What is this data?, Mcstay averages 23 goals a year and 3 marks. I sad no one could explain what value Mcstay brings to our side and you just haven't come up with anything. i would prefer elliott coming out of the square and Cox and Frampton changing ruck forward. Go back and watch the highlites of our first 3 games and then tell what Mcstay did, I think you might be disappointed

 

[manicpie]

Going to copy and paste a post I made earlier this year about McStay, about the way he plays and the way he links up with teammates.



McStay was piled into by critics for his performance on the night of the Semi-Final. It's interesting going back and skipping through the highlights and showing how much impact he had in a monumental win for his club, despite not getting any real attention for it

1:20 professional 1on1 win against the great Steven May, clean collect, delivers a dart onto Hipwood's chest who then kicks the goal
2:10 throws May off his run at the football, then takes out Rivers allowing the crumbing Ah Chee to run into an open goal
2:32 creative knock on to Hipwood to set him up for relatively simple goal, however Hipwood can't capitalise
3:14 gets up to half forward and presents and marks, delivers a perfect pass to Hipwood who goals
4:27 McStay tackles Rivers 20m out from goal and wins a holding the ball free, which Hipwood takes advantage of and goals
6:50 forces Lever to panic, then wraps him up and wins holding the ball. Following a 50m penalty he kicks the sealing goal.

McStay also kicked a 2nd goal (first chronologically) at the beginning of the last quarter as a result of being held, which wasn't included in the highlights package.

McStay may not be Cameron or Lynch but what he displays is great football nous and an inspiring ability to link up with teammates and bring them into the game. I remember on the night thinking Hipwood played a marvellous game but funnily enough, it looks like McStay presented Hipwood with just about all of his opportunities to kick goals. That's what I'm looking forward to McStay bringing to Collingwood - smart, selfless footy and bringing other forwards into the game. I was a critic when we were first linked but upon watching more of the way he plays - I've become a fan. Can't wait to watch him for us.

What about the other 20 games he played that year.

 

[adammania9]

What about the other 20 games he played that year.

Much of the same

 

[Cousin of Daicos]

I’ll keep saying it. Collingwood is the best medical department in the competition. Why waste the soft cap on doctors when you can just play us?

 

[3rdMan]

I never said Frampton should be permanent FF. As far as flexability goes, frampton is much more valuable. There is no data to back up anything McStay has done. Checkers has been in career best form without McStay and Danaher and hipwood are having their best seasons for years. What is this data?, Mcstay averages 23 goals a year and 3 marks. I sad no one could explain what value Mcstay brings to our side and you just haven't come up with anything. i would prefer elliott coming out of the square and Cox and Frampton changing ruck forward. Go back and watch the highlites of our first 3 games and then tell what Mcstay did, I think you might be disappointed

Sure, Frampton is more flexible, he's a better ruck, probably a better defender though McStay has also played there. I'm not looking for flexibility, I'm looking for a KPF to help out Mihocek. It's why we got McStay, so flexibility is not relevant. Again, neither Frampton or Cox are physically capable of playing the role McStay plays.

Sorry, but your analysis is too shallow. Pretty much equating goals with value. There's much more to the role of a KPF than goals. McStay is consistently elite at getting to and halving contests. It's why he played so many games for a top team in Brisbane and why we brought him in. It's not simply for the goals he scores.

Not going to debate it with you further. You say no one has given you a reason why McStay should come in, when in fact many have. I've just done so again here. You're not listening. You're entitled to your opinion as am I. In the end it means nothing, McStay will either be picked or not. I expect he will play very soon.

 

[sam_e]

Sure, Frampton is more flexible, he's a better ruck, probably a better defender though McStay has also played there. I'm not looking for flexibility, I'm looking for a KPF to help out Mihocek. It's why we got McStay, so flexibility is not relevant. Again, neither Frampton or Cox are physically capable of playing the role McStay plays.

Sorry, but your analysis is too shallow. Pretty much equating goals with value. There's much more to the role of a KPF than goals. McStay is consistently elite at getting to and halving contests. It's why he played so many games for a top team in Brisbane and why we brought him in. It's not simply for the goals he scores.

Not going to debate it with you further. You say no one has given you a reason why McStay should come in, when in fact many have. I've just done so again here. You're not listening. You're entitled to your opinion as am I. In the end it means nothing, McStay will either be picked or not. I expect he will play very soon.

i also thought McStay was hugely underwhelming in his early season 2023 form - albeit limited sample size before injury - in terms of the aspects of the game he was specifically recruited to address.

was surprised at his inability to achieve any level of separation from his direct opponent. was frustrated at the fact he brought his direct opponent to the contest to affect a 3rd man spoil against Mihocek a number of times in those early games. his poor agility /turning circle rendered him ineffective once the ball hit the deck ..

as i say, it's a very small sample size prior to his injury (and also prior to Cameron /Cox going down) but his Collingwood form for 'aerial contest', crasing packs etc was not really on display. also need to factor in new club / new gameplan etc etc but to-date he has not (did not) hit the ground running.

remember one post game presser, Fly was quoted as saying "..McStay was 3rd banana at the Lions but we've recruited him to play 1st banana key forward & he's still adjusting to that (or something to that effect) ..so even early doors it was acknowledged that he hadn't really laid down any markers as yet

 

[No SPIN]

Sure, Frampton is more flexible, he's a better ruck, probably a better defender though McStay has also played there. I'm not looking for flexibility, I'm looking for a KPF to help out Mihocek. It's why we got McStay, so flexibility is not relevant. Again, neither Frampton or Cox are physically capable of playing the role McStay plays.

Sorry, but your analysis is too shallow. Pretty much equating goals with value. There's much more to the role of a KPF than goals. McStay is consistently elite at getting to and halving contests. It's why he played so many games for a top team in Brisbane and why we brought him in. It's not simply for the goals he scores.

Not going to debate it with you further. You say no one has given you a reason why McStay should come in, when in fact many have. I've just done so again here. You're not listening. You're entitled to your opinion as am I. In the end it means nothing, McStay will either be picked or not. I expect he will play very soon.

You’re 100% correct Brodie needs a permanent partner - McStay is the logically fit.
The pinch hitter is a 3rd tall used to stretch a defence which where I see Framptons role.
The Frampton discussion is more about giving Fly game day flexibility rather than as an alternative to McStay in a permanent fwd role.
Only if McStay underperforms does Frampton become an option.

 

[3rdMan]

i also thought McStay was hugely underwhelming in his early season 2023 form - albeit limited sample size before injury - in terms of the aspects of the game he was specifically recruited to address.

was surprised at his inability to achieve any level of separation from his direct opponent. was frustrated at the fact he brought his direct opponent to the contest to affect a 3rd man spoil against Mihocek a number of times in those early games. his poor agility /turning circle rendered him ineffective once the ball hit the deck ..

as i say, it's a very small sample size prior to his injury (and also prior to Cameron /Cox going down) but his Collingwood form for 'aerial contest', crasing packs etc was not really on display. also need to factor in new club / new gameplan etc etc but to-date he has not (did not) hit the ground running.

remember one post game presser, Fly was quoted as saying "..McStay was 3rd banana at the Lions but we've recruited him to play 1st banana key forward & he's still adjusting to that (or something to that effect) ..so even early doors it was acknowledged that he hadn't really laid down any markers as yet

That's fair enough, I also agree it was a slow start to the year, though there were still positives: goal a game, creating contests, tackling. It will take time for him to get used to the new forward dynamics, it's why we need him playing as soon as possible. Given his consistency at Brisbane, I don't have any concerns that he won't be able to play the role required. Even his three games as a forward so far were good enough for me.

My view is we don't have anyone else who can play his role alongside Mihocek: running, contesting beast (Krueger would be closest). With he and Brody we have two of the most consistently hard working KPFs in the comp. That's what I've been looking forward to seeing develop.

 

[Scodog10]

It’s hard to make the case Frampton is NOT best 23, given his versatility.
There’s not much doubt he’s becoming an important cog to Fly.

I’d agree, but it was just last week that he wasn’t so I’m not convinced he’s an important cog yet. If he’s to remain in the 23 it’ll be at the expense of someone already deemed an important cog on here. Who is that in your mind?

 

[Scodog10]

I’ll keep saying it. Collingwood is the best medical department in the competition. Why waste the soft cap on doctors when you can just play us?

Where were they with Miller, Oliver, Greene, LDU and Steele? In the past it’s equal parts astounded and frustrated me how this happens, but 2023 has been surprisingly light on for guys making surprise returns against us.

 

[No SPIN]

I’d agree, but it was just last week that he wasn’t so I’m not convinced he’s an important cog yet. If he’s to remain in the 23 it’ll be at the expense of someone already deemed an important cog on here. Who is that in your mind?

Unless he gets back to the form he showed against PA, Cameron could be the one at risk.
Alternatively if McStay doesn’t perform then he could be in danger.
I don’t see any chance of Murphy being displaced the way he’s playing - whom I thought was at most risk when Frampton was recruited.
Depending on the opposition maybe Frampton is the sub.

 

[Scodog10]

Unless he gets back to the form he showed against PA, Cameron could be the one at risk.
Alternatively if McStay doesn’t perform then he could be in danger.
I don’t see any chance of Murphy being displaced the way he’s playing - whom I thought was at most risk when Frampton was recruited.
Depending on the opposition maybe Frampton is the sub.

I think the problem with Cameron as the one to make way is that it leaves Frampton as the number 1 ruck which I’m open to, but I don’t think the club are. Once McStay is back unless injured I can’t see him going out unless he isn’t contesting and drawing defensive numbers which I think will be a given. The one that probably works best is Frampton as the sub, but I reckon WHE will be the one to succumb to pressure for spots if we stay healthy.

 

[Hong Kong Pie]

Has been any report on what McStay's problem was?

 

[sam_e]

That's fair enough, I also agree it was a slow start to the year, though there were still positives: goal a game, creating contests, tackling. It will take time for him to get used to the new forward dynamics, it's why we need him playing as soon as possible. Given his consistency at Brisbane, I don't have any concerns that he won't be able to play the role required. Even his three games as a forward so far were good enough for me.

My view is we don't have anyone else who can play his role alongside Mihocek: running, contesting beast (Krueger would be closest). With he and Brody we have two of the most consistently hard working KPFs in the comp. That's what I've been looking forward to seeing develop.

this is the argument right there in terms of the available options ..can McStay (or Kreuger or Frampton for that matter) deliver what he was recruited to and impact in the forward line the way the coaches had envisaged?

McStay has missed an awful lot of footy across the year and is still to get any substantive runs on the board in that role at his new club.

Kreuger is competitive and has an uncompromising attack on the ball but his track record suggests he can't really control his body ..can be a liability to his own /team availability (too often injured during games). He's not yet trustworthy in what he can deliver across a single game let alone, say, a final series.

Frampton is the interesting one. He's not yet shown he can crash packs and be a beast in the air but if he can be a presence up forward, he then looms as a point of difference (offers massive flexibility) going into the back half of the year. He's already shown he can competently play 2nd ruck (& be competitive), is very athletic for his size (can run), excellent footskills, can kick the odd goal or two, can defend ..the point is, if Frampton can get close to delivering the same forward output as McStay then he is a real option for us.

 

[parano1a]

OUT : Moore, IQ, Murphy, Noble, Maynard, Pendles, Adams, Mitchell, J Daicos, Mihocek. (All managed)
IN : Kelly, Ruscoe, McInnis, Richards, Ryan, Macrae, Carmichael, Wilson, Allen, Richards

This would constitute what they call "tanking".

 

[Silky23]

Read a few of the comments over the last few pages, here is what I want to add.

• McStay is a lock, criminally underrated by everyone outside the 4 walls, his ability to hit packs and absorb a key defender or 2 is what we’ve been missing, even with Coxy up front. His output cannot be simply stated by the amount of goals he’s kicked as some on here are arguing he should be.
• Cameron isn’t being dropped, some people forget he is only 5 weeks in post being out for 6 weeks with the medial, his ability at ground level is better than any of our other ruck choices we have. We are also not going to allow him to play at VFL level where he would dominate and waste minutes.
• Cox will play. He has no right to be dropped and is playing with supreme confidence at the moment. We have hardly had any opportunity to see what a lineup of Cameron, Cox, McStay and Mihocek can bring.
• I like Frampton but we can’t gauge a good 2 quarters against GC as his metric, and some people stating Murphy to be dropped for him are insane. He will either be the 22nd player or play as sub.
• JDG in for Harrison, like what I saw from him and he will play plenty of games for us in the future.

PS isn’t it GREAT to finally have some KPP depth and we’re arguing about who we can leave out? It’s fantastic for us as a club.

 

[Silky23]

Defenders - Moore, Murphy, Maynard, Howe, Quaynor, Noble
Defender / Mid - N Daicos, Pendlebury
Midfielders - Titch, JDG, Crisp
Wings - Josh Daicos

7

Josh Daicos

Age

25

Ht

178cm

Wt

77kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

15.6

4star

K

8.3

3star

HB

7.3

5star

M

3.3

3star

T

3.6

5star

CL

1.3

3star

D

16.2

4star

K

9.2

4star

HB

7.0

4star

M

3.3

3star

T

3.5

4star

CL

1.5

4star

D

13.8

4star

K

7.6

3star

HB

6.2

4star

M

3.2

4star

T

4.2

5star

CL

1.2

4star

, Sidebottom
Key Forwards - McStay, Mihocek, Cox
Small/Hybrid forwards - Hill, Elliott, McCreery
Ruck - Cameron
Mid / forward - Adams, Lipinski

Imo is our best 22. Markov playing awesome footy at the moment so will make it tough for selectors. Our depth is incredible at the moment also. Flexibility through the roof.

 

[Silky23]

Anyway on Cameron, it seemed to me for most of the night when on the ground he ran around with Witts and made sure the big man had little to no influence on the game, which he did. I'll watch closely on Friday night but I reckon he'll go with English for most of the game too, while Cox and Frampton add the needed height and marking power around the ground.

Spot on. How often do you see Witts have 11 disposals at 36%, 3 clearances and only 29 hitouts?

Witts is averaging 39 hitouts, 13 disposals, 9.5 CP’s and 5 clearances on the season.

 

[gouki88]

I guess you need compare that to the amount of times I’m right…so yeah they need to listen to me

Yeah, Fly and co. really do seem to need some guidance. All they have is the top team in the competition with the most envied culture and the biggest fanbase.